#83 A ‘begin with WE’ culture revolution, Kyle McDowell, Speaker, Author, Leadership Coach

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

• What caring in the workplace means for Kyle
• Transforming cultures of dysfunction into cultures of excellence
• Challenge leaders to replace “I” with “WE” and reignite passion and purpose in the workplace
• The key to thriving organisations begins with WE

RESOURCES

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Transcript from the interview

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SPEAKERS

Graeme Cowan, Kyle McDowell 

Graeme Cowan  00:02

Today’s guest is Kyle McDowell. He’s the author of begin with we and previous to his life now, he led very large healthcare companies in the US with 1000s of employees and billion dollars in budgets. He came to a point where he wasn’t getting any fulfillment out of his roles and make the huge decisions to step away from that he had discovered that having a we mindset was really important for building a successful executive team and organizations, and we talked through some of his top three we statements out of 10. He’s also a massive Pearl Jam fan, and you’ll hear his voice lift and his excitement build, where he discusses the first time he went to a concert when he was 17 years old. Wonderful to hear that passion his voice. Kyle speaks extensively around the US to leadership groups and broader audiences, and loves his work, and you can really hear it in his voice. Enjoy.

Graeme Cowan  01:15

It’s a real pleasure to welcome Kyle McDowell to the caring CEO. Kyle is the author of begin with, we. Welcome Kyle.

Kyle McDowell  01:24

Hey, Graeme, it’s really great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Graeme Cowan  01:27

My pleasure. What does care in the workplace mean to you, Kyle?

Kyle McDowell  01:34

I think it means the same thing outside of the workplace. And I kind of, I know it’s a nuance in that question, but I have found through my travels that we put on this facade inside the workplace that kind of stunts our authenticity, and it slows us from being the real, genuine human, the person that we are outside of the workplace. So for me, the answer is both inside and out, and that’s where we just genuinely take an interest in those around us as a leader inside of an organization. If you’re you know, to kind of follow your path on the whole name of the podcast. It’s to be a caring leader inside of an organization. You have to invest time and energy into those around you. You have to understand what motivates them, what inspires them. You know, a manager will come in and check the boxes on the things that they’re accountable for and go on about their day. Whereas a caring leader, someone that genuinely is a leader, they care much more about the result than the results. They care about how the results are delivered. What inspires that person? For me, it involves understanding what someone wants to do while on our team, but just as important what they want to do outside of this team. Do they

want to get promoted into my role? Do they want to leave want to leave the company entirely? I need to understand what those things are, or else I can’t help enable those. And if you care, you genuinely want to see somebody do bigger and better things than they’re doing today. I think that’s our obligation as humans, but especially inside the workplace as a leader.

Graeme Cowan  02:58

What are some of the things you to understand what motivates people.

Kyle McDowell  03:04

There’s no substitution for just talking, just just conversation, and that’s and it’s not. It doesn’t need to be a scripted kind of, you know, canned, corny. Hey, what you know, what inspires you, what motivates you. Because there’s no substitution for having those authentic conversations where, you know, hey, Graeme, what’s, what do you want to do? You know, what do you what’s, what, what, what fills your cup, what inspired, what excites you? Because if it’s not in your role today, I get it. It’s called work. It’s not called fun. It’s, you know, you’re here. We’re here because we have commitments. We have things we have to deliver on for our friends and our family, for ourselves. So, so, you know, I just think it’s important to make sure that we understand from where everyone is coming, where they’re trying to go, and the role that I can play in helping them get there. Yeah, yeah. I’m not sure, familiar with the Bob Chapin his heel through everybody matters. And no

Graeme Cowan  03:58

CEO of Barry weimilar, you know, a US based business in St Louis, built it up to a massive, massive organization. Started at 20 million. They’re now three and a half billion. But he had, he had a discovery that he felt that, or believed he had to show you care by doing stuff and what he comes to discover, and as a real epiphany, was that you show your key by listening with empathy. And I really think it’s fantastic.

Kyle McDowell  04:29

I couldn’t agree more, actually, but it it starts with listening, right? Absolutely. We’ve all been that environment where the boss is quick to come in, you know, maybe shout a couple of orders, check alignment, make sure everybody know who’s on first, where everybody’s going, but you have to listen. You have to listen. It’s one thing to hear, but we got to listen. So I think I love, I love that response from Chapman.

Graeme Cowan  04:49

Yeah, yeah. It’s a great read as well. Really is a good read. Okay, I’ll check it out. You wrote a book called begin with. We what led you writing that?

Kyle McDowell  05:03

Wow. So you know, I would venture to guess that my background is not wildly dissimilar from those that follow you and are fans of your show. I began my career in a very humble way in a tiny little cubicle for regional bank here in Florida, in the US, and managed to, kind of climb the ladder. I said yes to a lot of opportunities, even when I wasn’t quite certain I was the right person for the role. I always threw my hand up to take on more and do more. And it seemed to work by most standards. You know, I had what

Wow. So you know, I would venture to guess that my background is not wildly dissimilar from those that follow you and are fans of your show. I began my career in a very humble way in a tiny little cubicle for regional bank here in Florida, in the US, and managed to, kind of climb the ladder. I said yes to a lot of opportunities, even when I wasn’t quite certain I was the right person for the role. I always threw my hand up to take on more and do more. And it seemed to work by most standards. You know, I had what can be described as a pretty successful career. I ended up I led 10s of 1000s of employees. I led PNLs in the billion dollar plus range, and the first 20 years of my 30 year career was spent. I was a product of the leadership environment that I observed. I was a bang my fist on the desk type guy results at all cost. I was not a caring leader. I know that, and I acknowledge that now and as my career started to really take off. You know, bigger titles, sexier titles, bigger compensation, cool corner offices. The only thing that matched those surface level accolades was my level of apathy. I started to really loathe the environments that I was responsible for creating. And that’s a that’s a hard pill to swallow. So I this, this apathy, led me to just a series of really deep sessions of self reflection, like, am I? Is there? So this is 2223 years into my career. Graeme. And I was like, There’s got to be more than this. You know, I’ve checked all the boxes. Career wise, air quote, success wise, but I felt unfulfilled. You know, I would, I would guess, when you entered the workforce, you brought a lot of optimism. You You were you were eager. You wanted to make an impact, you wanted to find fulfillment. You wanted to do big things. And I was no different, and I chased those big things at the expense of genuine connections. I chased that at the expense of fulfillment. And it reached a point where the apathy was so strong I had to get out of it. And I was, you know, I don’t want to come across naive, because at this point in my career, I was leading 1000s of people, and I was in a place where I was fortunate enough to say pause. I needed to just press pause in my career at this point, Graeme, I was on the doorstep of a divorce, which ultimately happened. My health was not in a good way. I wasn’t a very happy person. I wasn’t a fun guy to be around. In my career, my work was a large contributor to that. So I stepped away and I said, You know what, if I ever get a chance, or when I get the chance to go back in to the corporate environment, it’s got to be under a series of or a set of different circumstances. I wanted to be a leader, be the leader I’d never been be a leader I’d never seen. So when I stepped away, man, I got this phone call maybe two weeks later. This was an opportunity to lead about 15,000 people on a $7 billion program. And fast forward, I took the role. And about 60 days into my role, I asked the leaders, the top 40 or 50 leaders of my program, to all come together, because that would be my chance to to meet most of them, and also kind of set the expectation. And I the night before I was going to speak to this group, dude, I was terrified. I had no idea what I was going to say. I just knew the recipe for apathy that I had experienced. But I knew if I wanted to reconnect with those emotions, the passion, the desire for fulfillment, the excitement that I brought to the workplace. Early in the career, I had to do something different. So that night, I was working on the presentation that I had to walk through the next morning. It was probably midnight, and I just started playing through scenarios of the of the times throughout my career where I was left feeling less than whole. I didn’t feel valued. I felt like I was just a number inside of a big machine, and then I juxtapose that with the handful of experiences with really impactful leaders, those that really inspired me. And about two hours later, I’m staring down at my laptop, and I’ve got these 10 sentences that each begin with the word. We still do I’m not super creative. So I said, okay, here are the 10 weeks, and I shared them with the team the next morning, and that kicked off a transformation inside of that organization. Never mind the results, because they’re quantifiable, and they were across the board improvement sometimes and in some cases, the KPIs were at record highs never seen before on this 1520, year program. But what was really impactful, and told me that there was a bigger calling for me was watching the bosses inside that organization transition to real leaders, watching them genuinely give a shit about the people around them, which was really fun to watch. So I had some success with the principals there. I took them to another organization, even bigger organization, had a fair amount of success there, and the team from the original birthplace. Case of the 10 we’s members of that team started to call and say, Okay, you talk about being about it, are you really about it? And we think you’ve got a bigger calling. When’s this book coming? And I said, I’m not writing a book, and that’s not who I am. No. So I followed, I followed their advice, put the book together about a year and a half. It became a USA Today at Wall Street Journal, bestseller, and those principles have have kind of transcended my work life, and now they drive everything I do. They are they are my compass for all things on this planet. And now it’s my mission to spread those principles so others can have the same level of benefit and fulfillment that I’ve found.

Can you example of, you know, two or three ways and why they work, why they’re impactful?

Kyle McDowell  10:45

Yeah, you bet. And it’s, I think there’s a when I, when I, when I kind of enumerate or walk through one or two or three, the reaction I usually see or even hear is like, well, no shit, Kyle, of course, we’re going to do that, but it’s in collection. So for example, the first we, of the 10 we’s is we do the right thing. Always that one word, second sentence, is never left out, and it sets an expectation of, here’s who we are, here’s how we operate. If we’re debating which path we’re going to take, we’re always going to take the path of the right thing. Now we can disagree and kind of banter back and forth on what the right thing is, but we’ll never approach a scenario with any other thing in mind. So that’s the foundational principle. But I’ll jump to two others that I think are really powerful and impactful. It’s we. Number eight is we challenge each other. Because, as you know, in most environments, challenges are reserved for the boss, and it’s it’s one direction, but if we really want to be excellent, we want to get the most out of this team, not just from a results perspective, but from a connection perspective, from alignment, from impact, we’ve got to have challenges come from every direction. Peers have to look at each other and say, Hey, come on. We challenge each other. We I know you got more in the tank than this. Likewise, members of the team must be enabled and empowered to challenge their leader. The math alone says that one person can’t challenge 1020, 30, 10,000 people. Effectively, we’ve got to have everybody with the right and most relevant information at the table saying, Hey, this is this is who we are. This is what we do. I think we can do better than this. Challenges must be grounded in data or experience. They can’t be your opinion. We all, we all have those we’ve got to come with facts. But then the corollary, the principle that follows that, I think, is just as impact with we number nine, it’s we embrace challenge, whether it’s an external market threat, whether it’s a budget situation, or whether it’s a challenge, from high on the organization. We’re going to embrace it. We’re going to be galvanized by those challenges. And we’re going to look back at it and say, Man, look, look what we accomplished. There this thing in front of us now, it’s nothing. Because we accomplished, we overcame this challenge. We embrace this one. The umbrella statement that I would that I would end this response with, is a principle. Is a foundational belief. It is something that we hold to be true. When we get a team of people to align around a series of fundamental beliefs, it makes awkward and tough conversation so much easier. So for example, Graeme, if you’re on the team and your results are down, you’re struggling a little bit. One of the principles is we pick each other up. So you and I would have a chat, and I would say, hey, Graeme, I’ve noticed you’re not quite where you were in terms of your performance, or maybe I’m just noticing that there’s a general kind of lack of energy on your on your part, and we pick each other up. I care. I want you know. You don’t have to share all the details with them, but I just need you to know that I’m I’m aware. I see it, and I’m here for you and Graeme. Remember, we also challenge each other, so I’m going to challenge you, and we’re going to line on the next series of expectations

with dates and outcomes, and be very explicit on the expectations. But it makes those conversations so much easier, because I’m coming at you from a place of alignment versus a place of you being inferior or I need something more out of you.

Graeme Cowan  13:59

Yeah, I really love that. And I’ve been fortunate enough to have Amy Edmondson on the show, you know, with who real expert in psychological safety. And that’s really about people free to be their authentic selves. People can suggest ideas and not be blasted down. They can also challenge ideas if you know, they don’t think they work, and it’s just so essentially, there’s a very, very complex business world out there, isn’t it, and no one person has all the answers. The best thing that we can do is to have that, really we mindset. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Dave Logan. He wrote a book called tribal leadership, and he talks about the the five moods of workplaces and starts off at Life sucks. My life sucks. I’m great. We’re great, and life’s great. And so he’s a lot of assessment of tribes who he just defines as from. 20 to 150 people, and he has found that the vast majority of people in the the I’m great category, which is where it’s ultra competitive, people try to compete with each other, withhold information that doesn’t serve them and and you know, it’s exactly what you’re talking about in my keynotes, I often do, you know, live polls, where I ask people reflect on the best teams they’ve been in. You know, could be a sports team or last role, this role when they work with McDonald’s, and then I asked them to really picture the people that were in that team and what made them special, what made it unique? It has them vote on about 10 different factors, and the top three in 95% of the cases are we cared about each other, we had each other’s back, and we enjoyed working together. You know, these were all very human things, aren’t they just as we it’s incredibly human. And it’s about belonging. It’s it’s where we’re if we feel we belong, we can almost get through anything.

Kyle McDowell  16:13

Amen. Amen. And I go back to the first question you asked at the top of the conversation about, you know what it means to be to display and care inside the workplace, and that’s why I went back to the my answer had that caveat. It’s no different than outside the workplace. We want to we want to add value. We want to add value to our relationships outside of the workplace, just like inside the workplace. We want to feel valued. We want to feel as if we’re contributing. We want to know that we’re we want to be reminded I appreciate what you what you did. You know, I’m glad you showed up today. I’m glad you, you gave your level best, those types of things. And if we can connect the value that we’re delivering now, we’re in a utopian state. That’s, that’s, it’s really hard to come by. But you said something a moment ago, Graeme, that I think is so pervasive inside most organizations, and that’s this, for me to win, someone else must lose. Mentality. It’s almost cannibalistic. And I’ve, you know, as you know, we’ve both been around the block a few times. That’s simply not the case. It’s just not the case. And as the leader of a group of one or group of 10 to you know, 10s of 1000s, if you win, I win. It’s just that simple and but there’s this defensiveness and this like territorial turf protection that we take on when we enter the workplace that is just not healthy, and that’s part of my mission is to make you know you won’t hear me. You rarely will you hear me. Spout off 14 letter words, business jargon, corporate cliche stuff, because people don’t relate to that. They do. You know, they just don’t. And I think, and I think to build trust, I I think trust is a product of authenticity and relatability. And when you when you see me being authentic and that that doesn’t mean I’m going to sugarcoat things. If I’m nervous about something or concerned about a threat or whatever the case is, you’re going to know it,

but I’m going to lean into the team, instead of just acting as if it’s not an issue, and that you guys will all figure it out like my business card is too important to help us figure this out together, but when we’re authentic about those things paired with related relatability. In other words, you got a sick child at home, man, I can relate to that. Or you’re burned out. You’re just tired. Yep, I’ve been I’ve been there as well. It’s when I when I act as if I can’t relate to that burnout. And you’ve got this, you’ve got this laundry list of things you got to get done. Go get it done. Well, that’s not re that’s not reality, it’s not relatable. And that is what creates this thing I call the leadership gap. That’s where the boss and the team are on different pages. They have different kind of priorities, and then there’s this level of skepticism that that is, is really, really a problem once that trust or the authenticity and relatability are not display on this full display from that leader.

Graeme Cowan  18:51

Yeah, you’ve now had some very, very busy roles and very hectic roles. How have you practiced self care? What are things that you think fill your own tank. What are the things that you know help you to be a better person?

Kyle McDowell  19:08

Oh, I love that. I love how you ended that question, be a better person? Well, for me and I, by the way, I think, I think it’s again, back to the work versus out of work kind of conundrum that many of us find ourselves, I can’t be my I can’t be I can’t be the best husband that I could be to my wife if I didn’t invest time and energy into myself. It’s no different inside the workplace. I can’t be the best leader that I’m capable of being if I don’t take care of myself. And for me personally, it’s fitness I have to sweat almost every day, and that could be as simple as a hot walk around the block here in Florida, which is not hard to come by, or much more intense workout, but I try to start every day with a good sweat, because it just it seems to position me to take on more throughout the rest of the day. And that for me, it’s, it’s, it’s my go to and by the way, when stress gets really high, even if I’ve had a workout that morning, I’ll end the day with a workout, and even if it’s a quick 15 minute session, just moving. But for me, that that movement is it creates momentum, kind of on all fronts, but especially up here.

Graeme Cowan  20:11

Yeah, about you? Yeah, same thing, same thing. After this, it’s what it is here at 630 in the morning. So when we finish this, I’m going to do a workout. So yeah, you know, I’ve had some really huge life challenges in the past, you know, long periods of depression and that sort of thing. And I basically came out of it, you know, thinking that I wanted to have, you know, three outcomes and, and the first one is vitality, and that’s, that’s our physical health. So it’s moving, well, resting well, eating well. Intimacy is about building, you know, strong and supportive relationships around us, both at work and at home. And prosperity is your career well being, you know, feeling fulfilled in what we do. And so that the acronym for that is, you know, VIP. And you know, talk about people you must act like a VIP. That means just topping up each of those cups, well being each day, covering those things. And you know, it was a transformation for me to do that and practice that and live that. And you know, I had a similar situation to yourself. When I was a, you know, a vice president for Carney, the global management company, you know, it was just working my ass off and often letting important things go, like relationships and staying well. And if we don’t keep fuel in our own tank, we can’t, you know, support others. It’s, it’s just, we can’t give what we don’t have.

Kyle McDowell  21:46

Isn’t that the truth? Did you? Did you? I’m curious to get your take on this. For me, I found, especially around those years that I mentioned, where I, where I stumbled across these principles. I mean, I created them, sure, but I didn’t. It’s, there’s nothing earth shattering or or controversial within them, as I mentioned, most people would just say, Well, yeah, no kidding, we’re going to do those things. But I’d be curious to see if the challenge for me was during that time a lot less so now, as I conflated my identity, my existence on this planet, with my work, however, and when something goes wrong in the workplace, you know, you get asked to go do another job. You’re not welcome at that company any longer. There’s a period of detox that has to take place, and for me, so I left a really, I left a massive pharmaceutical firm like fortune 10 firm, under not the best of circumstances, but I have to be honest, and that I when I departed, I had a non compete and allowed me to force me to sit on the bench for 18 months. The first couple of months of that, Graeme was absolute detox. I could not I could not unplug from this thing. But there were no emails coming. Nobody was waiting to hear from me, and it’s like, what? What are you doing? Man, like this is not your purpose on this planet is bigger than what you do for a living. But if you can combine those things and have your purpose on this planet be connected to what you’re doing for a living, the sky’s the limit and the impact you can have. And that’s how I approach my work today, and I tell people all the time, because I recognize that may come across a little woo, woo for some people. But get this, and you, I think you, I’m sure you know this, during our lifetime, we will spend about 100,000 hours working. The only thing you’ll do more on this planet is sleep. So if you’re this person that believes that the time on this planet is fleeting, and then you want to make an impact. Boy, the workplace is a hell of a place to start, because that’s where you’re going to spend the most amount of your time, other than sleeping. So I’ve tried to marry that. I’ve tried to marry my work life, the ability to make some money, find fulfillment, but also have an impact, if you can marry those two things, Boy, you really have found something special. And that’s that’s part of what I try to get folks to recognize. Your job can be a job if you approach it as such, but it can also be an impactful thing that drives so many other aspects of your life if you approach it that way. And that’s how I choose to approach it.

Graeme Cowan  24:19

We have some helpful resources that you can find at WeCARE365.com.au, the first is our mental ill health calculator, which is a quick and simple way to work out what poor mental health costs your organisation in lost productivity and employee turnover. You will also find our building a mentally healthy culture checklist, which shows how to launch a great initiative and keep that momentum going. These resources can be found at WeCARE365.com.au,

Graeme Cowan  24:53

Just jumping to another subject. I understand you’re a Pearl Jam fan, and would you mind just telling our guests how that happened and how you’ve come to see 105 shows?

Kyle McDowell  25:11

Well, respect to your research. So thank thanks for that. I don’t think I’ve ever been asked this on a on a show. I It’s true. I’ve been to North of 100 shows, and started when I was 17 or 18. I’ve seen Pearl gym in three countries, traveled across the country multiple times. And for me, it was an outlet. You know,

this started back in the 90s, when when grunge and alternative rock was what it was, and it was an outlet. For me, the music and the lyrics always were a draw to me, but now, Graeme, I’m in a text exchange. We were just going back and forth earlier today with a group of people that I only know from Pearl Jam shows. We would, we would, we would come together in a city bounce two or three cities together. We wouldn’t see each other for months or years till the next tour. So I’ve gotten to I’m very fortunate. I’ve had some lifelong friends, and I’ve been, what’s really cool is the my best bud, who bought the first set of tickets that we ever needed to see a show back in 1994 he’s probably been to 50 shows with me. And it’s now, it was and still is kind of our thing. It’s like, every time a tour is announced, it’s like, okay, Aaron, we going, what are we doing? So it’s been a thing, but it’s also been a source of really great community and connection as well really respect that research

Graeme Cowan  26:31

Describe your first concert with Belgium.

Kyle McDowell  26:35

life changing, life changing. And I It sounds so corny, I know that. But you know, in those days, a great rock show had lots of lights and lasers and smoke and pyrotechnics and all this. The Pearl Jam show was the antithesis of that. It was obviously loud and and energetic, but they stripped down all of that other nonsense, to have the music and the performance be the real show. And I remember the very next morning, I got home late that evening, still lived my parents, obviously, and my mother was getting ready for work the next day. How was the show? Kyle, and I’d been to a lot of concerts at that time, I said, Mom, I was just like I was I was flat last mom, it was the coolest experience with the worst seats ever. The venue that we saw them that evening no longer exists. It was demolished since then. That’s how, how long ago this was, but it was the beginning of a really beautiful part of my life, and I’ve probably been to 40 states now because of them, Canada, Mexico as well. So it’s been a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a significant part of my life. It really is.

Graeme Cowan  27:46

Life changing is a very strong term. What do you think changed in you through that first concert?

Graeme Cowan  27:55

Wow, I love your questions, man. You know, I don’t, I don’t know that the first concert was kind of an epiphany or or pivotal moment in terms of the change. But there’s a you know, for any Pearl Jam fans that are watching this or listening to our conversation, I’m certain they would also agree that there is an authenticity that comes from Eddie Vedder, the lead singer, as well as the band that you know. These are guys that, back in their heyday in the 90s and early 2000s they had tours with no sponsors. They didn’t want to be connected to sponsors that they didn’t fully embrace, or that were more kind of corporately than they were about the music. The lyrics have always been really impactful and powerful to me. I mean, at one point in my life, I had this massive canvas that had the lyrics of one of my favorite songs written in the most beautiful font. Was a massive canvas, and it was just a reminder, because there’s anybody that’s even a casual fan of music there, there are lyrics here and there that just resonate. I gave a speech at Kellogg where I where I went to business school, and during that speech, I quoted a couple of Pearl Jam songs, because to me, they’re not just expressions or cliches or even memes. They’re they are powerful things. And by the way, the quote I shared was it’s from one of my

And from that, I took, be different, be you, be unique. Dream your own dreams. Don’t let somebody else set those for you. Be Your, be you, dream what you want to dream and go chase it like hell. That one sentence from that one song is, it’s, by the way, that song, that that album, came out 20 years ago, maybe 15, and it’s still etched in my brain. I always will be,

Graeme Cowan  29:44

Who’s your who is your go to mine is Bruce Springsteen, and it’s for similar reasons, similar reasons, you know, incredibly authentic. Just has built this massive tribe, like people you know, who come to Australia and go to, you know, five areas, and many people go to all five. It’s just amazing. And, you know, I think it is cool that a lot of people can relate to his music as well. In fact, there’s a documentary that came out called Bruce and me, and just interview people where he had this profound impact on their life. You know, really, really huge. And, you know, obviously we’ve chosen different bands, but for the same reason, I think it’s, it’s extraordinary.

Kyle McDowell  30:30

Break a good song, a good a good song or a good band can change your mood instantly. Yeah, and, and, I’m, I’m such a nerd, I admit it. So Pearl Jam radio on Sirius XM. They replay concerts throughout the day, and it’s so fun for me. When a concert comes on, I’ll turn to my wife and go, Yeah, I was there. And then there are individual specific songs or parts of songs, or maybe banter in between songs. And I’ll, I’m like, watch this here. Listen to what he says here. So it’s been, I’ve got this huge catalog of CDs as well, dating myself, but it’s, I’m glad we can, we can connect on this, because there are some people, you know, no criticism of them. They don’t music to them is, is a is just a form of entertainment. And of course, it is for me as well. But if you allow it to be, it can be something much deeper. It can be inspiring and motivating, and that’s what the band has been for me for a long, long time. And I’ve been fortunate enough to meet many members of the band. And you know, there’s this risk that when you meet one of your heroes, and I would describe Vetter as a hero of mine, that you can be disappointed. And it’s never been that. It’s always been the most gracious interactions, and almost kind of fuels my borderline obsession, because they’re such good guys.

Graeme Cowan  31:44

Yeah, work is very tough. Now, you know there’s so many challenges, be it economic technology, with AI and leadership teams have to lead change. How do you work together as a team to recognize the problem and and decide what action you’re going to take. What are the, what are the really, real secrets to that? Do you think

Kyle McDowell  32:09

Well, for me, it’s, it doesn’t start when the problem surfaces. It’s, it’s, it’s well in advance of that, and it involves setting our expectations of one another, and that’s the standard, and that’s the principles when we so I think most organizations do a really fine job saying, hey, Graeme, welcome to the team. You know, here’s your new hire orientation. Here are the PMPs. Here’s where you check the standard operating procedures. Here are the five or six things by which we will judge your success or lack of you know your your performance criteria. But where I’ve found so many organizations broadly but leaders specifically fall short, is saying, but here’s how, not the X’s and O’s, here’s how, here’s how we behave

Well, for me, it’s, it doesn’t start when the problem surfaces. It’s, it’s, it’s well in advance of that, and it involves setting our expectations of one another, and that’s the standard, and that’s the principles when we so I think most organizations do a really fine job saying, hey, Graeme, welcome to the team. You know, here’s your new hire orientation. Here are the PMPs. Here’s where you check the standard operating procedures. Here are the five or six things by which we will judge your success or lack of you know your your performance criteria. But where I’ve found so many organizations broadly but leaders specifically fall short, is saying, but here’s how, not the X’s and O’s, here’s how, here’s how we behave on this team. Here are the expectations for this team. We own our mistakes. Is one of the 10 Principles. We measure ourselves by outcomes, not activity, is another. So when we set these expectations from the very beginning, from the orientation moment on, actually during the hiring process, hey, these standards are how we hold each other accountable, and they’re they are the expectation. So when the adversity does strike, those conversations become less about reacting and more about responding. Okay, we got this gnarly problem in front of us. It’s like, All right, we embrace challenge. We know that when, when, as I mentioned earlier, someone’s down, we pick each other up outcomes over activity, it’s when we establish the expectations for how we get things done. There’s really not a lot that we can’t accomplish when it’s thrown at us. So not only does it set the table for how we behave, it also sets the understanding for the approach that we will take when adversity strikes, anybody can lead during good times. It’s so easy. It’s so easy for me, it’s when adversity strikes, when when there’s uncertainty, when there’s, you know, challenges around every corner, and that can mean inside and outside of the workplace as well. How we react to them almost becomes second nature, because we’ve already subscribed to these principles. And it makes those conversations and overcoming the adversity not easy, but it makes we’re more aligned on how we overcome Yeah. Can you think of a time when you lead a team, when not everyone embrace the me, the we mindset so focused, can you turn people around in that situation, and how do you do it? I’d be naive if, if I were to respond with a resounding yes, it’s not true. It’s never my goal to get 100% of the team on board be nice, but I think that’s naive. So what I found, either in my work since writing the book and working with organizations or individual leaders, is really no different than what I found when I was a leader inside corporate kind of rolling out and implementing the principles. Yeah, and that’s typically this. Of the group of people, there’s probably a 50% ish cohort that’s like, this is exciting. I am on board. Point me in the right direction. Let’s go. They’re on board. Of the remaining 50% I would say that group is cut in half. The first group is okay. We’ll see kind of cautiously optimistic, if you will. And then that last group is the he’s full of shit. That guy is so full of it. We’ve seen guys like him or gals like him come and go. And I am not buying it. I don’t try to convince those people with my words, a matter of fact, I don’t try to convince anybody with my words, because that group, that last group, the I call them the obstinate group, they’re obstinate not because they choose to be they’re obstinate because they’ve been burned. They’ve probably had someone like me come in and espouse this standard that that that they want the team to be known for, or a group of a list of standards that they want the team to be known for. But they don’t live those standards. They don’t live those principles. So I I’ll give you a real life example. So when I first introduced the principles to that organization, this is back in 2017 probably 40 people in the room, maybe 50, half. Boy. I could just feel, I could feel the energy. Another group was skeptical. There’s a fella in that group that was he asked me for my presentation because he wanted to share it with his team, or so I thought he admitted later he only wanted the presentation to check the file properties to see if I had created the principles, or had I stolen or borrowed from somewhere else. But in the obstinate group, there was a woman who challenged me at every corner, every turn in public settings, and one on ones, she was she was obstinate, and it was obvious that she was not on board, she she I could see in her behavior that I was full of it, that I was, you know, a corporate robot just just wrapped in a different, different wrapping paper. My So Julie, what her name is, Julia, and she knows I share this story, so there’s, there’s no problem. When my favorite example is, I said, Hey, Julie, this is probably two months into my role. I say, Julia, I need an Excel workbook. She was responsible for this pricing for our biggest contract. I said, shoot me over that workbook, because I was still new and I wanted to learn a little bit more about how the references worked, what tab fed, what I was just trying to learn one So Julia hit send on an email to me that had a screenshot from Excel, and right your reaction is spot on the head shake is that’s not helpful. So I very politely responded and said, Hey, Julia, I need the whole workbook because I want to see the references. No problem, Kyle, she responds, and now I get the workbook, but it only had one tab, and it was all hard coded, so I couldn’t see the references again. And at this point, Graeme, I was ready to bang on the desk. I was ready to make the phone call and be like, send me the document, like the old Kyle like. But for whatever reason, that moment between stimulus and response, I recognize two things. One, she’s not acting out or being obstinate just for the sake of being obstinate. She’s a high performer. She’s got a hell of a reputation. She’s brilliant. I noticed that, but she didn’t trust me, and I recognized if I was going to be the guy standing in front of this group of leaders saying, we challenge each other and we embrace challenge, but I didn’t embrace her challenge, however inappropriate it might have been that I was a hypocrite and everything else doesn’t matter, because my words are almost irrelevant if my actions aren’t aligned with them. Fast Forward nearly 10 years later, and Julie is one of my closest confidants in the work world. We meet we haven’t worked together in half a dozen years, and we still have one on ones every six or eight weeks or so, just to keep up with one another and bounce ideas and career moves off each other. And I just highlight that example, and I share that Graeme, because had I taken the classic approach, and I think it’s the approach that most bosses in my situation, would have responded with our business card saying, Stop the nonsense. Send me what I asked for, and let’s go, move on. I would have lost her, and I would have lost Allen the opportunity for that connection, and I’m better off having Julia in my circle than without she helped me name the book, actually. So that’s a long winded story, and way of saying words are cheap. You’ve got to live it. You’ve got to set the standard. You’ve got to live it every single day. And when you air and when you slide from your own standards, you got to own it. You just got to say, Man, I blew it. I’m sorry. I’m not perfect at this, and I’m counting on you guys to help pick me up just the way I would if you if you slid as well. And I think that vulnerability is key. And back to that relatability component. When people see that I’m human, I made a mistake. Yeah, I’m the guy on evangelizing these principles, but I’m not perfect, and I’m gonna stumble, but we pick each other up, right? That’s not just me to you. You got to pick me up as well. And that creates a bond that I think is far more important than transcend. Is the workplace. It’s more about people connecting at that point. And what do you think helped to turn around what was it words or questions? What helped you turn around that situation? Well, so we’ve all, we’ve we’ve all been in this situation where a new leader comes in and they’re trying to, like hell to put their stamp on an organization trying to kind of they want to have an impact, and they dive straight to the results. They drive straight to, here’s where we are, here’s where we need to be. Let’s talk about how we get there and and for me, it’s it’s really transformed into more about who are you, what inspires you, what motivates you, you know, what fills your cup in this role. And I’m not naive, you’re probably not going to be in this role forever. So outside of this role, what’s next for you, and having those interactions, in the conversations, understanding from where someone’s coming, what, what it is, what, what, why do they get up in the morning? Beyond The Beyond the commitments of bills, and I get that we all have those things, but I just think it’s incumbent on the leader to bridge that gap, to say, what do you need from me? What role can I play in your growth, not just here in the workplace. So we got to establish the connection first. While that’s happening, our standards are out there. They’re widely communicated. We’re not ambiguous about it. They’re conspicuous. They’re everywhere. I still wear bracelets. A 10 we bracelet today is we embrace challenge. They’ve got to be conspicuous. And when the standards are set, it’s easier, not easy, but it’s easier to address slippage. It’s easier to dress when people are behaving ways contrary to the principles, because I can point to them. The expectations are very, very clear, and that’s I think, where most leaders get it wrong is they don’t, they don’t set those expectations. So people are kind of left to their own interpretation of expectations. And you know what happens then? Very rarely are we going to be really explicitly aligned when those expectations are not explicitly communicated.

Graeme Cowan  42:04

Yeah, yeah, a lot for me, I love that. It’s been great catching up Kyle. Our time’s gone very, very quickly. I always, you know, finish, I guess, with the same question, and that is knowing what you know now. What advice would you give your 17 year old self, who had just come home from the Pearl Jam concert?

Kyle McDowell  42:29

Find when the next show is and see if you can get tickets? Would be the first answer. Back in those days, it was really hard to get tickets. There was no internet. Basically, we had to dial in. But I get the spirit of your question, and it’s an interesting question, because the truth is, if someone handed me my book at a young age, 1720, early in my career, whatever, I probably would have tossed it aside. And I hate that answer, but it’s the truth, because there’s some there’s experience matters, and that experience allows one to transition from being a product of their environment to becoming the leader that they want to be, or the leader that they’re capable of being. And that’s hard to that’s hard to come out of undergrad or even your MBA saying I’m the leader that I’ve always wanted to be, the experience really does, and putting in the reps really does enable you to be the most impactful leader that you can be. So my advice would be, be yourself, be you authentically. You do not modify your behavior. Who you now. Please don’t get me wrong, get it inside the workplace, we there’s a level of decorum that we’re all expected to demonstrate, but there’s this fake it till you make it, kind of mentality that so many of us are are influenced to to operate by and with that that removes Our authenticity. It tells us Don’t be vulnerable. It tells us that we should have all the answers. It tells us that you know, our colleagues are actually competition, which is not the case. They should be collaborators with us. But when you’re yourself, you’re spending your brain power on doing right, not trying to be right. You’re spending your brain power on trying to find optimal outcomes make an impact be fulfilled. And I just don’t think we have it within us to, at least not for a long period of time, not from a sustained not from it’s not sustainable, to be one person half the time focused on your own accolades. Look at me, but then also be a caring leader. You. I don’t think we can do both. So I think that level of authenticity, you being you, warts and all, is my, is my, be all, end all, line of encouragement

Graeme Cowan  44:54

Wonderful advice. Because when we are ourselves, when we are all thin. There. It keeps us on the right track. It really does. And you know that authenticity flows to other people and also sharing. You know vulnerabilities as well. You know if you share a vulnerability, it gives other people permission to share theirs, and that’s it. That makes a very, very big difference, you know, that’s it. And the opposite is true as well. Graeme, if I’m, if I’m this corporate robot to which no one can relate, they’re not going to be their authentic selves. Either. They’re going to put a, you know, a mask or a facade on, and I’ll never know the real person behind that. That’s but for other people to go, you got to go first. You know, it’s that’s just how it works, and that’s and if you’re not comfortable with that, you should question whether you’re a boss or a leader, because a boss is is really comfortable just checking boxes and saying,

here’s what I need you to do, or a leader obviously, is going to do so many more things, care, invest time, energy and work to create an environment that people can be their best, versus demanding it, and I think it’s very different approach, a great way to wind up. Thank you very much Kyle for being part of The Caring CEO, and really loved our chat, and we’re both on the same page with the we side of things. I’ve got a new book coming out called great leaders, care and building safe, resilient and successful teams. And you know, I guess we’ve both seen that, if that’s done right, it can lead to amazing results. So thanks for being part of the show.

Kyle McDowell  46:31

Hey, Graeme, it’s my pleasure, man, you’re doing really important work, and it’s an honor to be here with you today. I’m grateful for the opportunity. I’m so I’m so, so glad we could make this work, especially with our different hemispheres and our time zone differences. So thank you for bearing with me on that man, it’s been a real pleasure. Thank you.

Graeme Cowan  46:46

Yeah, my pleasure.

Graeme Cowan  46:48

Thanks for joining us today. We hope you’re inspired to strive for a culture of care that also leads to great results. If you’ve enjoyed this interview today, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform, and don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss an episode. We also welcome any comments. If you’re interested in seeing details about our scalable WeCARE365 mental health training programs, please visit us at WeCARE365.com.au. Our goal is to make these programs accessible, practical and ongoing. You can also find me, Graeme Cowan, on LinkedIn, and I’d love to hear from you. And finally, if you’ve come across a senior leader who has impressed you and you think they’d be a great guest, please email us at support, at WeCARE365.com.au. Thanks once again for listening today.

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