#82 A career of contribution, Brendan Maher, CEO, St John Ambulance Australia

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

• What caring in the workplace means for Brendan
• Insights on strategic vision, integrity, and ability to build strong partnerships across government, corporate, and community sectors
• The power of everyday community care, the simple skills and confidence we use to support others emotionally and physically

RESOURCES

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Transcript from the interview

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SPEAKERS

Graeme Cowan, Brendan Maher

Graeme Cowan  00:01

Today’s guest is Brendan ma the CEO of St John Australia. Brendan’s had a remarkable career in the for purpose sector, and he’s had times with Lifeline, R U OK, Movember and his current role, I worked with Brendan closely when I was on the board of r, u, OK, and I can more than 100% guarantee the huge impact he had growing that organization. When he started, there was just four people, and he really played a significant role in growing the organization, as you’ll hear his very human, centered leader, and he cares deeply about developing and expanding the roles of people that he works with. He also shares the tragedy of losing his brother, Damien, to suicide, and the impact that had on his 12 siblings. And that’s correct, 12 siblings. He has some great practical advice about leadership, and I think you’ll enjoy his lesson he would share with his 20 year old self. It’s worth listening to the end to hear that Brendan has a lot to share. Enjoy.

Graeme Cowan  01:23

It’s a real pleasure to welcome Brendan Maher, the CEO of St John Ambulance, to the caring studio. Welcome Brendan.

Brendan Maher  01:31

It’s nice to be here. Graeme,

Graeme Cowan  01:33

What does care in the workplace mean to you?

Brendan Maher  01:38

That is a good question. Look from, from my perspective, it, it means genuinely seeing people as humans, first, you know, and not just your staff or employees. So you know, taking a real interest in who they are, understanding that everyone’s juggling something outside of work that affects how they show up. And I think really about creating a space that puts health and family, you know, as a priority. I mean, work’s always going to be here, and we’ll always find a find a way to keep things running, if, you

know, if staff need to prioritize, you know, life, family, health. I think it’s about also ensuring we’ve got real strategies around wellbeing, and not just lip service and and that. That starts with, I guess, benchmarking, you know, how people are doing and and continually measuring things, you know, not, not, not always through a survey, but, you know, listening to what they say, acting on it and and ultimately building and maintaining a culture where people feel safe, where they feel supported, where they feel valued. Because if we get that right, you know, kind of everything else follows, very much so. And our listeners should know that we worked together, I guess about six years at R U OK, where I was in the board, and you were the CEO, and I can certainly reassure everyone that you know you really live and breathe, that you do have a very human, centered approach.

Graeme Cowan  03:16

What is set some ways, have you looked at ways to monitor that sort of stress level in a quantitative way, or has mainly just been about gut feel, looking around, checking people out. Yeah, look, it’s probably both. I mean, we have a, we have an annual, you know, sort of workplace culture piece, which isn’t just a it’s, it’s externally facilitated. There’s, there’s a survey component, but there’s also one on one interviews with with every staff member, which gets a real sense of of where we’re at and and where that where the, I guess, the soft points are, and the things that we need to focus on. But, you know, bringing this up regularly through team meetings, management meetings, we we really try and address well being as as a core part of of how we do business here. Graeme, yeah, I know

Brendan Maher  04:07

it’s a little bit of an unusual structure at St John, bit of a federated model. Is that, right? So you have individual states, but you’re, you’re the head office, and how do you interact? Yeah? Well, any, any federated structure you kind of look at and go, Why would you build an organization office? You know, we saw Federation work, you know, in some ways really well in Australia, as our state and territory structure in helping us navigate the pandemic, depending on who you’re talking to, yeah, so the Australian office or the Australian priory, our states and territories operate under a license agreement to the Australian office. They’ve all got operational sovereignty. They’re all complicated in different businesses in Western Australia, for instance, and the Northern Territory. St John run the public ambulance service, which is, and I think in WA, that’s the single largest geographic ambulance service in the world. So the big.

Brendan Maher  05:00

Complex businesses, and we’ve got a very, very good culture within what we call the National Leadership Group, which are my my state and territory peers at the CEO level. And we operate under agreed minimum standards, and we hold each other to account with respect to to how we serve the community and what we expect from each other. It’s not always easy. Graeme, there’s, you know, there’s always a lot of different viewpoints to manage. But, you know, I work in an incredible organization with, you know, with, with professionals who care deeply about the work that they do. And for the most part, we are, you know, we’re very much heading in the same direction.

Graeme Cowan  05:36

How do you look after your own self care?

Brendan Maher  05:41

Well, look for me, it’s about, you know, doing things that bring joy and balance. You know, if I’m talking about outside of work, I love walking the dogs, our, you know, we’ve got a Charlie, our cavood and Benson, a bashoodle of sorts, design among really,

Brendan Maher  05:58

you know, they’re happiest at the beach, chasing a ball and and, you know, the Time Out outdoors is grounding for me and and my wife too. And look, I think, you know, knowing that and connecting with with our kids, you know, staying connected knowing they’re doing well, exercising. My wife, Tanya, and I, we try to do two personal training sessions a week, which is something we do together. And we’re both busy people. We don’t always get, you know, a lot of time together to do things, you know, like that. Cooking is another big one. Tanya runs a market gardening business, so we’ve always got amazing fresh seasonal produce around. So cooking for me is a really good opportunity to to shift gears from work to to home life, you know, eating well, doing things that I like doing, staying on top of my physical health. So, you know, seeing the GP or physio when I when I need to. And, you know, checking in on my mental health, including with professional support when, when I, when I know I need to, to keep that pendulum in sync, probably, connections as well. Graeme, you know, getting involved in the community. I live in a in a small coastal town on the east coast of New South Wales called Maria. It’s a beautiful community, and sort of getting involved there. And, you know, keeping in touch with family and friends, and, you know, surrounding myself where possible, with people who energize me. Yeah. And you know, it sounds a bit counterintuitive, but knowing how to say no to things Graeme is important too. You can, you can kind of over commit. And I think sometimes, you know, having the ability to say no is a really important self care strategy. Yeah, I think that’s a great point. And thanks for saying yes to this. Oh, yeah, absolutely always you, Graeme,

Graeme Cowan  07:41

I know you came from, you know, very large family. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about that? And I guess the values you took away from that growing up, period?

Brendan Maher  07:53

Yeah. Graeme, look, I’ve been really lucky. I’ve got a very large family. There’s, there’s 13 kids, so I’ve got 12 siblings, seven sisters and five brothers. You know, we grew up in a noisy and busy household. Mum and Dad worked very, very hard to, mean mum’s case, manage the household in dad’s case, to, you know, to to to establish, you know, a career that was, able to support the family, and, you know, put us all through private school, and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I don’t know how they did it, to be honest. You know, we, we had, you know, a good, loving family. I mean, we had all the things that go with, you know, that many siblings, a lot of teasing with a noise, noisiest house in the street, there’s there’s factions, there’s all sorts of things, you know, for the most part, you know, in every part we are, you know, we’re a close family. There’s lots of nieces and nephews and, you know, all the complexities that come with a large family. You can probably apply, you know, population based statistics to our family. But yeah, I was lucky. I had a very good role, role model in my my late father, and my dad, Peter, who was a great guy and and me a lot about, you know, respectful relationships and, and, you know, often think about Dad and think if I could be half the man he is, you know, I’ll, I’ll be doing well,

yeah, it’s great to have a role model like that. I was fortunate also to have a, you know, a similar, very, you know, very generous, very caring father, and you know, the more we go on

Graeme Cowan  09:27

in our work, in, you know, our daily lives, the more you realize that that’s not the norm. There’s lots of people that have really tough upbringings and don’t really have great role models in that environment, and you know you had shared previously that you had the tragedy of your brother Damian taking his life. And I’d just like to hear you know what your thoughts are. Now, it’s been a while, but I’m sure it’s still very painful.

Brendan Maher  09:58

Well, yeah. It’s, it’s, actually, was reasonably recent. It was, it’s been almost six months ago when my brother Damien passed. And, yeah, it’s a loss that’s still very raw. Graeme, you know, having spent so long working in in suicide prevention, you know, it brings another layer of, I suppose, reflective complexity to, you know, how? You know, I manage my own, you know, sort of processes and and mindset moving forward, you know, in some ways, and I’m actually very okay talking about this in some ways, you know, Damien, he wasn’t doing well for a long time. He was diagnosed with a, you know, significant mental health challenge. He was bipolar, and it was bipolar in its extremity. So there were long and sustained periods of depression, and, you know, not doing well at all, and there were periods of, you know, normal, you know, doing well. And there were, there were periods of mania, and the episodes of depression became more sustained, and the episodes of mania became, you know, very, very intense. And, you know, in some ways, it wasn’t like he was doing really, really well, and then it just happened. It didn’t come, you know, it’s not like something came completely out of the out of the blue. The circumstances in which he died were, were very traumatic for the family, of course, and that’s not how we wanted him to go. He had access to resources. He had access to, you know, and many people don’t, but as a family, we were able to provide that opportunity for him. But unfortunately, he just didn’t feel that he could, he could get better, and it was very hard to lose him. And we’re all in our own way, you know, trying to move forward and deal with it. I’ve been getting some amazing professional support, and I know without that, I wouldn’t be functioning at the the level that I am now. So that has really helped me. And you know what? I’ve been banging on about people getting professional support for most of my career, it’s important that I sort of practice what I preach. So yeah, thanks for asking Graeme. As I said, I don’t mind talking about Damian. I think we need to talk about it. I miss him, you know? I wish it wasn’t. It wasn’t this way. But, you know, hopefully the some of the work that I’m still able to do as a board member of value, okay, will help, you know, potentially, you know, stop other families from from needing to to go through this terrible tragedy. Yeah, and at the end of the day, there’s just some things you can’t control. You know there are things entirely outside the realm of your influence. And as you know, I’ve attempted my life, and when you’re in that state, you just think incredibly black and white and just convinced that things will never change,

Graeme Cowan  12:39

it feels 100% real and and so people are listening out there today, just know that you have it really tough, as Brennan said, Get professional help, because that can make a big difference. And just remember that, you know, things can turn around, and they can make a and you can go on to have a

really good life, as I’m fortunate to have. Now, it’s not any fairy tale myth, but, you know, things can turn around and be much, much better.

Brendan Maher  13:09

I agree with that GRAEME And we used to, any chance we get, we would, we’d have that conversation with Damian. And you know, many times he believed it. You know, unfortunately, in the end, life just became too overwhelming for it.

Graeme Cowan  13:22

I want to jump back now jumping around a bit, but back to this federated model and holding each other accountable. How do you, how do you build that sense of belonging around the group? Is there anything that is consciously done that builds, you know, real robust camaraderie, and, I guess, a shared future for st John,

Brendan Maher  13:47

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we have, we do a lot of work at a at a leadership, at a federated leadership model in ensuring that we, you know, we know where we’re going, and we’ve got a really clear and collaborative direction, you know, we’re not the kind of organization as as a kind of a national office or license, or of of St John brand that, you know, kind of pulls out a big stick and says, Oh, you must do this, and you must do that. We focus very much on, you know, kind of collaborative decision making and aligning on directional goals, and, you know, ultimately getting a commitment on on, you know, sort of key initiatives that are going to, you know, support the communities that we serve. You know, one of the challenges with with any federated organization Graeme is, you know, transition of leadership. So, you know, when I started three years ago, three and a half years ago, there’s only one CEO within that group who’s actually still there, within the within the context of that leadership group, but, but the cultures remain strong. And, you know, we’ve, we’ve managed to sort of set that and create an environment where we are respectful. We have, you know, really good, robust conversations. But we, we do. Do you know we do work well together, and we’re clear on the direction that we are going, and there’s a lot happening, as there always is, and I guess, understanding and respecting that all of the states and territories have, you know, have different businesses, and you know different nuances and different community needs. If you look at Western Australia and Northern Territory running a public ambulance service in regional service in regional with with a strong regional remote area. It’s a really complex business. And you know, you’ve got to be respectful of making sure that the time that we spend together is is time well spent and and you know that we get focused on what it is that we want to achieve as a federation within the St John context, yeah. And in terms of planning for the future, is that done through a facilitated process to, you know, to work it out what your priority is going to be, yeah, yeah. So we, you know, we’re, we’re strategic. In terms of developing our our plans. We have a range of touch points, including a what we call a Federal Council, which is when all of our CEOs and board chairs get together. And that’s a real engine room for sort of moving, you know, key key priorities forward and and getting sponsorship at a very senior level, so that we can then task our relative, you know, sort of professionals and and people to sort of, you know, move forward, on, on, on key initiatives. One such example would be, we’ve just moved towards a unified national brand, and, you know, that’s the outcomes of which are profound when you get it right. But it’s taken a few years, and you’ve got to make sure that everyone’s moving in the right direction. So we used a forum like Federal

Council to make sure that we were continuing to get that sponsorship and support at the very at the highest level, so that we could, you know, sort of navigate a major change process.

Brendan Maher  16:55

Very good for our listeners. Would you just give them a quick overview of your career, you know, the last last 15 years or so, you know, the groups you’ve worked with and to the role you’ve had there? Yeah, for sure. So look, I started out in communications straight out of school. I did a gap year in the UK, and then I studied a communications degree at University of Canberra, and I spent the early part of my career in brand and agency land. So one of the well, my last role as a brand strategist in in an agency in Canberra led me to lifeline, national crisis support helpline, which I’m sure all Australians would be familiar with. And I was working as a brand strategist at the agency to help lifeline with the National rebrand. And ultimately, that project kind of changed everything in terms of the trajectory of my career. I joined them in 2007 so the the brand project wrapped up, and the CEO of the time, Dawn O’Neill, invited me over to step into the community sector. And I actually started the role in setting up a national cannabis helpline so to deal with builders and telcos to no idea what I was doing. By the way, it was a foot in the door. And then I’ve moved into role establishing the national fundraising function, again, no idea what I was doing. And, you know, it taught me a lot, actually, lifeline, you know, Dawn was a great leader, one of the most authentic leaders I’ve known Dawn O’Neill, the CEO, you know, there was, there was a lot in there about my career becoming purposeful and and finding something that I was passionate about. I mean, 2009 was it was a turning point. We I was part of helping to coordinate lifeline submission in into a Senate inquiry into suicide in Australia. And it really changed the needle in terms of, sorry, move the needle with respect to getting suicide prevention on the on the national agenda. And was probably the moment that I shifted from having a job to having a vocation. And that was an amazing seven years. And at the end of that, we had a bit of a restructure. I had an opportunity to to move on and and I took that opportunity with the encouragement of our board chair at the time, John Brogden, it was great advice. And after sort of, you know, flapping around for a few months not knowing what, what I wanted to do, I got a call up to have an interview with r u Okay, Graeme. And that’s where our crowds, our paths, crossed in 2013 and I got the job. I still lived in Canberra, so I had to commute a few days a week. And, you know, it was a, it was an amazing it was amazing. Small team. I think there were four people. And as you know, they were still finding their feet after the loss of the founder of R U OK, Gavin Larkin, who had passed away in in 2011 Yeah. So look, the early days were pretty tough at at you okay, you know, you’d remember Graeme, we were under resourced. We we had a couple of major partnerships that were coming to a natural conclusion. And, you know, I suppose I’d sold myself on my credentials of being able to sort of set up partnerships, which I’d done very well at lifeline, but it took us. Little while. It was a fairly, fairly tough few months. But we, we ultimately landed a couple of big ones with with hungry Jackson, Virgin Mobile from memory. And it was the start of, you know, six years, probably six of the most incredible years of my career, which, which I contributed to assisting to help us continue to to grow into one of Australia’s most recognized mental health campaigns. Yeah, it was, it was an unbelievable time and and, in fact, I think we even touched base in 2009 when Gavin I and Canada, Canberra and launched the very, very first. Are you okay? You, I think you were there, right? I was certainly there. Yep, I’d been invited to this launch. I think Nicola Roxon was a health minister. Because this, this guy, Gavin Larkin, had just kind of landed in the space, you know, he had this campaign called R U OK Day. And we were like, Who is this guy? You know, this come from the sector, up in arms. You know, the government had just given the

money. And, you know, there’s no evidence anyway, there was a huge amount of evidence. And that was Graeme, sorry. That was Gavin’s lived experience. And I remember at lifeline, we decided very quickly to to get alongside Gavin, you know, with respect to ensuring that there was an on ramp to across the support service, etc, etc, yeah, who’d have known at that time that, you know, four or five years later, I’d be, I’d be in a key leadership role with r u, OK? And I’m very grateful that I met Gav because that was the, the first and only time that I met him. And it was an extraordinary day, like, as you might recall, that launch. There was a lot of media there. There really was, and we thought of, it’s gonna be fantastic. We’ll be all over everywhere, get back to Sydney, get to the news, and apparently, well, some dog got stuck out of mine in the Hunter Valley and all the all the new stations get prostituted this doctor there.

Graeme Cowan  21:50

So it wasn’t, you know, for a first one, it was fantastic. But based on everyone there, we thought it was going to be huge.

Brendan Maher  21:57

There’s a nice little pun in there. Graeme, are you okay? Nine, yeah, that’s what I’m with. The doc, exactly, exactly.

Graeme Cowan  22:07

We have some helpful resources that you can find at WeCARE365.com.au, the first is our mental ill health calculator, which is a quick and simple way to work out what poor mental health costs your organization in lost productivity and employee turnover. You will also find our building a mentally healthy culture checklist, which shows how to launch a great initiative and keep that momentum going. These resources can be found at WeCARE365.com.au.

Brendan Maher  22:44

Looking back over the period, because, you know, when you did join, things weren’t great. We didn’t have big money coming in. We’d had, you know, lost, lost a sponsor or two, and with yourself and Catherine Newton after you it’s become something quite extraordinary. You know, for something it only started in 2009

Graeme Cowan  23:09

What do you think are the key elements that led to it being the success it has been,

Brendan Maher  23:18

look, whilst, you know, obviously I was there during a significant period of growth and development. I will be at pains to stay that I inherited a an amazing organization. It was, you know, it was just such a strong brand. And I guess in some areas, it might have needed a little bit of sunshine and fertilizer around things like, you know, partnerships and perhaps focusing on really strengthening our resources and thinking about succession. And you know, when there were four people there to start off with, but look, I think fundamentally, the key thing that contributed to its success was, are you okay? Always maintained a really tight lane. They knew who they were and what they weren’t, and they never once, they really, they really stayed in that lane, and they said it, said it, well, we said it, said it and said it

again. We were focused on empowering people to have a conversation with someone they worried about. And we were very true to that purpose, and we remain true to Gabs purpose. I also think the connection of of R U OK, as a movement to Gavin and to the Larkin family and their their story, which came from a place of of lived experience with the death of Gavin’s father, Barry, in the in in the 1990s

Brendan Maher  24:35

people could really relate to that. And you know, it the simplicity of R U OK, the fact that we didn’t ask you to do anything other than to pick up our resources and promote the value and and the profound impact that a conversation can, you know, can make in in keeping someone connected. You know, we didn’t ask people for money. We just asked them to get involved. People still gave us money.

Graeme Cowan  25:00

Which was great, because you’ve got to keep the lights on. But, yeah, that level of simplicity and the work that we did in ensuring that we’ve got a good underpinning evidence base in evaluating the campaigns and program gave us the credibility, I think, that we needed in the sector to really see this, to see, are you okay? Become a really respected player in the, you know, in the mental health and suicide prevention space, yeah, yeah. Funnily enough, I’m just finished first draft of a new book I’m doing for Wiley, which is called great leaders care and part of the Red Zone care section. And talk about the history of, are you okay? And what were the key elements that led to a success. And really, very, very similar to what you’ve just described, I think the other thing was, and of course, we had Gavin’s story, but we came to have many, many stories, and those stories magnified the impact, those authentic stories, and they still are the biggest reason for for change. Another thing that I think was significant is because we had no money. Everything was digital. Start with, you know, all the resources, the videos, the social media, everything. So we started off as, like a digital native charity. And I think that was a big contributor, because, you know, social media now has taken over from, you know, mainstream media, and that’s really, really produced something, something special, which I think we’re all very, very proud of. Couldn’t agree more,

Graeme Cowan  26:35

With regards to involving people in a shared future, whether it’s where you are now, or are you okay or your time at Movember. What do you think is key to that, to get getting people to really grow together?

Brendan Maher  26:58

Look, I think partly it’s about, you know, genuine consultation and involvement when we talk about shared future. So if we want, like I think, if, if I want the people in my team, the organization I’m with, to feel like they’re part of the journey, then they actually need to help us shape the plan and not just be handed one. That means, you know, it also means that our strategy or plan needs to be dynamic, not not set in stone. So you we have to continually be providing info input and assessing. I mean, we live in a really dynamic world. You look at things like, you know, the emergence of technology and AI, things are changing at such a rapid rate, we can’t sit and forget. So we need to revisit our plan, which will will shape our shared future regularly and make sure that our our actions are aligned with it. We’ve also got to stay in our lane. I spoke about this in respect to R U OK, like when, when I was running R U OK, as CEO, there were lots of tempting rabbit holes, especially when funding opportunities came up, you know, you might have a corporate that said, look, we’ve got half a million dollars. We we want to, you

know, contribute to, are you okay, which would have solved a lot of our funding problems at the time. Let’s come up with a new idea. Well, you know, we don’t actually need a new idea. We need to, we need some petrol in the tank to drive the idea that we are, that we are committed to, and so staying true to your mission and and I suppose that same discipline you know now applies to St John. St John as as it did, as it did when I was at Movember. I had a few years at Movember, and I always, I kind of always reinforced, certainly to myself and to the team, if what we’re doing doesn’t align with our mission and vision or our strategy, we should strategy, we shouldn’t be doing it. Stop doing it, you know. And that clarity helps to build trust, I guess, helps keep us focused, and hopefully, you know, maintains that shared sense of purpose across the team.

Graeme Cowan  28:55

Yeah, when you look at your role as a leader, now been the big influences on you? Is it people, or is it books or videos or, you know, what are the things that have really impacted bring to my leadership?

Brendan Maher  29:12

That is, that’s a really good question as well. I think obviously, you know, families had a had a huge influence on me, and the people that I work with have a massive influence, particularly people that, if I think about, you know, certain boards that I’ve worked with, one of which was, was, was, Are you okay, Graeme, and you were there for my whole tenure. And I actually remember having a conversation with with Mike Conahan, who is the foundational Board Chair of a UK and is still there. And he once said to me, if you want to be a good leader, model the traits that you’ve admired in in others and and this advice has has kind of stuck with me. You know, I’ve worked with some incredible leaders I mentioned. At, you know, Dawn O’Neill at lifeline, in terms of influence, you know, when I when I see, you know, sort of good behavior or something that inspires me. I try and think, you know, how can I take something out of that into the way that I interact with, with my people? If I take Dawn, for example, right? So, she was my, my first CEO in the community sector, lifeline as as an organization was was federated, but there were 26 member boards to corral and Dawn was this person who, and I hope she doesn’t mind me talking about it, I’ll send her a copy. She was one of these people that led with with grace, but, you know, and a rare balance of sort of toughness and compassion. So, you know, she took a genuine interest in people. She gave people opportunities, including me, whilst at the same time, she was telling me there was a role I applied for in the senior leadership team, and she sat me down, said, I don’t think you’re ready, but throw your head in the ring. And she gave me an opportunity to act in it. And I eventually got the gig, which was which was amazing, but she was also someone who stood beside her team when, when things didn’t, didn’t go to plan. I remember missing a major fundraising target once because, as I told you earlier, I had no idea about fundraising. And instead of distancing herself, she stood in front of me. And you know, that kind of leadership gave me a lot of a lot of insight, because it’s kind of like, you know, when you when your team, when your leaders, are doing well as a CEO, you You’re doing well. You just need to, you need to focus on on lifting them up and reinforcing and celebrating successes, because as as a as a leader, you get that kudos anyway. Because if the organization is doing well, you have your performance review. However, many times you have a board meeting, that’s the truth. Every board meeting is a performance review, really. But also, you know, with Dawn, for instance, it was about sort of that whole values alignment. So Dawn was someone who carried lifelines, values, compassion, empathy, care, resilience, it was all reflected in her behavior. And I think that’s what great leadership is. It’s not perfection. I mean, you’re never going to get the full

package from anyone, whatever that is, so it doesn’t exist. But, you know, Dawn gave presents and, and she also surrounded herself with with talented people who were empowered, and they were better at their particular craft than, than, than than Dawn was. And she acknowledged that, and, and that’s, that’s my philosophy as well. You know, all of my leaders are far better at their area of expertise than I’ll ever be. And that’s not a threat. It’s actually the point. Yeah, yeah, there’s some great insights there. Have you ever had a big setback in your career that one? Yeah, look, sure, you know, there’s, there’s been, there’s been failures. I’ve missed the mark on things. You know, you might have handled things where not handled things well, you know, the thing that I find really, really hard in this job is when you know, structural change, change happens in this job, in any job, and you you it results in good people needing to be off ramped because of the budget constraints or a change of direction. I really feel that, and I suppose there, you know, in the early part of my career, there might have been ways that I I’ve handled, you know, some of those processes and conversations that I would do differently now. So look set back, possibly when I left lifeline and I had that period of of, I guess, little hiatus between, between lifeline and, are you okay? It took me a little longer to sort of find my next step and, and, you know, I started, you know, sort of questioning myself about whether I’d pigeon holed myself into, you know, into the wrong place. Should I have left the commercial world? Did I have any value to, you know, to employers that that period was hard, but kind of, I don’t think like that anymore. I probably wouldn’t be as bold now that I’m almost 50, to leave a job without having another job unless I’m retiring or doing something different. But, yeah, look, I’ve been pretty lucky. I’ve worked with, you know, with some amazing people, and I’ve always felt really supported by by the boards that I’ve worked with. And there’s always a power imbalance with a board and a CEO, right? But I’ve always felt like I’ve worked with really amazing people, and I feel very lucky. I’ve had a great career, and I’ve been able to do meaningful work. And, you know, right now, I’m working for an incredible organization that does, you know, incredible work for the Australian community. And every day’s a every day is a blessing, including with the team that I am so lucky to work alongside and admire and respect.

Graeme Cowan  34:40

Brilliant you shared book him on air that you really loved Patch Adams movie. Why? Why does that really resonate with you?

Brendan Maher  34:50

Look, Patch Adams is just one of those underrated movies. I think that when people say to me, oh, what’s your what’s your favorite movie, most people will say the Shaw Shanker. Exception, or, you know, that one comes up regularly. It just stayed with me for for so long, and and Robin Williams was just, you know, such an amazing, an amazing actor. And you know, it had everything, like humor, it had heart, you know, it was inspiring. And it was also based on a true story. So Hunter Adams, or patch where Robin Williams played was, you know, was a medical student, and you know, he, he moved out of the sort of, you know, sort of clinical mindset into focusing on the role that connection plays in in healing. And he challenged the kind of system by showing that people aren’t just cases or conditions. They’re they’re humans who need to be seen, heard and cared for. And you know, that that, it just made me feel so good that movie, and I could watch it. I could watch it every day, the week, Graeme. And you know, it’s a reminder to me that, you know, sometimes the the most powerful thing we can offer someone is is, is our presence and connection, like a laugh, a conversation, you know, a moment of empathy, a knowing glance, a hand on the shoulder. You know, it all matters. And if you haven’t

seen Patch Adams, you know, it’ll be on Netflix or one of those, just have a look, because it’s great. Movie, fabulous. And I also shared that through just pure luck, I came to see Ron Williams perform at a comedy club in Los Angeles and

Graeme Cowan  36:19

and you know, it was the end of the night, he came in as a surprise entry, and he just blew everyone away. It was just like you see on YouTube or other places. He just his stuff goes a million miles an hour. His mind was and along the way, he worked out that my colleague was a kiwi. And anyway, walking out the door at the end, and he was there, and he called us over, and so we had about a 10 minute chat with him, and it was incredibly engaging. And you know, it was, it did send shockwaves around the world when he took his life. In fact, it was

Graeme Cowan  36:56

I my book back from the brink. I launched in the US about two weeks after, and I had all these media interviews organized or in the US talk back, but it was all anyone could talk about, was just how, what a positive impact. You know,

Graeme Cowan  37:15

he had lots of really great movies that move people, Dead Poets, society and, you know, lots, lots and lots of other ones. He really made a massive impact. And, you know, he had a sign or saying that essentially was behind everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle you know nothing about. And it’s such a great message, isn’t it to really think about, because the reality is, that’s the truth. It’s so true. It is the truth. Yeah, it’s been absolutely fantastic catching up. Brendan really enjoyed just going through your background, your career, and what shaped you

Graeme Cowan  37:57

look back now. And you know, being with all the wisdom, the hard knocks, the success. What advice would you give your 20 year old self if you had the opportunity to

Graeme Cowan  38:09

advise and then, and this the other part the 20 year old self, listen,

Brendan Maher  38:16

you probably wouldn’t look my advice is, it would be pretty simple. I think if you’re if your ladder is leaning up against the wrong wall, move it to a better spot. And I think that probably applies to work, to career, to relationships, really, any part of life. It doesn’t mean that you should run away at the first sign of discomfort, of course not, but it means, you know, you should pause and ask, is this giving me the stability I need. Is this situation helping me grow? Is this the right view? Do I need to get higher? You know, sometimes we find ourselves climbing really hard, pushing forward, only to realize we’re kind of treading water, or not hitting somewhere that allies aligns with our values or purpose, or we’re just really not happy, and I think that that’s when it’s worth reassessing, so not not abandoning the climb, but you know, finding a finding a better footing, being intentional, and making sure the effort that that you’re putting in is is taking you somewhere meaningful. Look, 18, when I was 18 or 20 years old, Graeme, that seems like yesterday. And that’s, that’s 30 years ago, and Time flies, and I’m grateful that

I don’t feel like I’ve wasted, you know, too much of that opportunity. But yeah, move that ladder. If it’s not in the right spot, move it reassess, find the spot that works and makes you happy and gives you meaning. I suppose I’d say, Yeah, I love that. I love that. And I think also, Stephen Covey talked a lot about that as well, in terms of purpose and guidance and what you’re striving for, and it’s just no good if you’re pointing in the wrong direction. You know, you just it’s just not going to be fulfilling and right for you. And you know, you’ve got to be courageous sometimes. And.

Brendan Maher  40:00

Mean, you know, taking calculated risks. You know, whilst it might be uncomfortable for a period of time, like, you know, leaving a job without another one, you know, there’s, there’s, there’s real opportunity in, in, in what some of that risk can provide, in terms of a mindset shift, or maybe an opportunity to completely think about doing something different. I would never have seen myself working in in the community sector after, you know, stewarding my way through advertising agencies, I thought I’d and I’d be a burnt out ad man. Now, if I was still in there, I can tell you right now, but it gave me an opportunity that I jumped on, because I saw the opportunity to work with someone who I really respected, and I’ve never looked back. It’s been, it’s been an incredible journey. I’m very grateful

Graeme Cowan  40:42

thanks for being part of the hearing, CEO and all for the great work you’re doing. Brendan, you know you continue to do it, and it’s an absolute pleasure to catch up again.

Brendan Maher  40:52

Likewise, Graeme, always enjoy catching up. And yeah, I hope people listening get something meaningful out of this, or an insight or something. And yeah, I appreciate the opportunity, and thanks for asking

Graeme Cowan  41:02

1. No worries. Thanks for joining us today. We hope you’re inspired to strive for a culture of care that also leads to great results. If you’ve enjoyed this interview today, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform, and don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss an episode. We also welcome any comments. If you’re interested in seeing details about our scalable we care 365 mental health training programs. Please visit us at We care 360 five.com.au,

Graeme Cowan  41:36

our goal is to make these programs accessible, practical and ongoing. You can also find me, Graeme Cowan, on LinkedIn, and I’d love to hear from you. And finally, if you’ve come across a senior leader who has impressed you and you think they’d be a great guest, please email us at support, at WeCARE365.com.au, thanks once again for listening today.

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