#76 Silicon Valley innovator, Melissa Dinwiddie, Founder, Creative Sandbox Solutions
DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE
- What caring in the workplace means for Melissa
- Why perfection kills innovation
- How to reframe failure as fuel for creativity
- What leaders can do to cultivate more collaboration and curiosity
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Transcript from the interview
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SPEAKERS
Graeme Cowan, Melissa Dinwiddie
Graeme Cowan 00:02
Today’s guest is Melissa Dinwiddie and she’s an innovation strategist. She’s worked with groups like Uber, Google, Meta and science force, but she has a very but she has a very unconventional past. She started as a dancer and worked in that area for 10 years. Became a jazz singer, an artist, worked in calligraphy. She discovered improv, and that became a source of collaboration and creative ideas, and she gradually used that experience to take these offerings to .com organisations, she has a process called the impossible framework, and there’s three parts to that; play hard, make crap and learn fast, and she goes through point by point to talk about how important each of those areas are. In today’s world of huge uncertainty and rapid change, being able to be innovative with a team is a number one priority for any leader. Melissa brings a very enlightening and energetic approach to new ideas and innovation and joy.
Graeme Cowan 01:17
It’s a real pleasure to have Melissa den witty join us on the caring CEO, welcome Melissa.
Melissa Dinwiddie 01:22
So great to be here. Thanks for having me. Graeme.
Graeme Cowan 01:25
What does care in the workplace mean to you?
Melissa Dinwiddie 01:30
Ah, yes, care in the workplace really means treating people like human beings, first, before job titles, before KPIs, it’s it’s really about creating a culture where people feel seen and safe and supported. And I always say innovation can’t happen in a vacuum of fear, play and risk taking, which are two cornerstones of. Innovation require psychological safety. So caring isn’t just soft, like we talked about soft skills, it is strategic.
Graeme Cowan 05:11
Very much is there’s some very good evidence. What’s that? You know? You might be aware that Gallup measure engagement and discretionary effort, and one of the one of the statements they have is my supervisor or someone at work seems to care about me as a person. And they all work strongly agree with that, the higher the productivity, profit, customer service level. So it’s not a nice to have. It’s really essential for successful business, isn’t it?
Melissa Dinwiddie 05:38
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the stories that I hear, I mean, I’m, I’m basically a, essentially a solo operator. I have an assistant, but it’s, it’s me in my business, so I but I can talk separately about this other endeavor where I’m working with a team. But I hear all the time from people like my husband, who is an employee and a big corporation, and I have lots of friends who are in similar situations, and whenever I hear stories about people who leave their jobs, it always comes down to a human issue. It’s not because of their salary wasn’t big enough, or they didn’t have good enough benefits or whatever. It’s always some human issue that comes down to some kind of toxicity in the workplace, or they didn’t feel cared about right so, or like, my husband was laid off a couple months ago, and that was a case of not being cared about by the humans in his workplace because he was in a great situation with his team, but the corporation didn’t care about the humans, and they just, you know, like, oh, 8% of their work for it. Oh, there you go.
Graeme Cowan 06:49
Yeah, that’s a massive cut, isn’t it very hard for it. But it’s, I guess it is a signal of just how much uncertainty and rapid change there is in the workplace now, when you work with teams, how do you help them to cope better with uncertainty and to feel more confident, feel more supportive? What sort of things do you do to help create that?
Melissa Dinwiddie 07:17
Yeah, and you’re so right now is a time of just profound uncertainty. I mean, that’s just sort of the human experience. Of course we there’s never really such a thing as total certainty, but we are living in a time of profound uncertainty. And, you know, I really rely on my improv training. I started doing improv about, really, just about a dozen years ago. So it hasn’t been that tremendously long, but I tell you that is one of the greatest gyms for life. And in fact, a colleague of mine, a mentor of mine, calls it calls improv the gym for life, when, when you when you practice the skills that enable teams of people, you know, groups of people, small groups of people, to get up on stage and create, essentially, a work product in front of a paying audience, a customer you know, On the fly that there’s nothing like that to to train your ability to think on the fly, to think on your feet, to communicate. Improv teams are known for incredible communication skills, because you have to have your partners back at all times, and incredible listening skills, all the skills that you need for leadership improv trains, all of those so called soft skills. I hate that term, but the human skills that we need to be, you know, incredible, effective leaders, effective communicators of all kinds. So I really lean into that
Graeme Cowan 08:59
I can imagine, and I don’t like the term soft skills either, and I much where I heard this, but heard someone else called them strong skills. And really love that, because, you know, they are the skills that make or break a team or a division or an organization. They they make a massive difference. Last year, I did a introductory course to improv, and I must say, I really, I did really enjoy it, and it was an amazing experience to be taken from a group of strangers who never met each other before to, I think it was the end of six weeks, you know, really knowing a lot about each other and about their personalities and and, you know, just being able to support them. There are some really wonderful life skills there that you really have to put into action very, very quickly.
Melissa Dinwiddie 09:56
Yeah, it’s, it’s really profound. I was Lee. A session for a leadership course that’s run by the city where I live that I went through this program last year, and they brought me in this year to lead a session on essentially, how to present their class projects more effectively. And I was talking about, I talk about this actually a lot with people who tell me that they’re afraid of of doing an improv. Course, I was telling this class of 24 folks from all walks of life that you know, if you’re having a conversation with somebody, you’re improvising. Unless you’re holding you are improvising. And the only difference between, you know, everybody else and performing improvisers like myself is that performing improvisers just practice the skills that we need to get up on stage and make up things on the fly. We just practice those skills so we get more facile at them. But everybody improvises all day long, of course. And yeah, that’s we all do it.
Graeme Cowan 11:05
Yeah, definitely. I saw in your background that you know you have a long history in the arts. Would you mind just letting our listeners know about where you started, where you were involved, and how you now have become an innovation strategist? Within that background would be helpful,
Melissa Dinwiddie 11:22
yes? Well, as you saw from my background, my path has been anything but linear. I started as a Juilliard trained dancer, and then I became a professional calligrapher and artist for 15 years. That’s how I made my living. And I was also a jazz singer and performed and toured a little bit as a singer songwriter, I have been an improv performer, and somewhere along the line, I realized that the creative tools that I had used to overcome my own inner critic and creative blocks, perfectionist paralysis and all of those you know, those things that keep us stuck, all of those creative tools that I’d figured out were exactly what corporate teams needed to break out of creative ruts. So now I help teams at companies like Google and meta and Salesforce use play and creativity to unlock innovation and improve communication. And I also wrote this book that you can see because we’re on video here, called the Creative Sandbox way, which outlines in a it outlines these, the 10 steps that I figured out to help myself get out of creative stock. And those steps, those 10, I call them guide posts, went on to inform the framework that I now teach my create the impossible framework, which is play hard, make crap, learn fast, and that’s basically a repeatable process that allows people to get past their blocks.
Graeme Cowan 13:13
We’ll go into that in a little bit, in a minute, but all that artistic, creative career that you had. How did you mentioned that it was part of play? Play was an important part in learning from that and apply it in a business situation. What else did you learn from that background in the creative arts to bring to the business world?
Melissa Dinwiddie 13:42
Well, you know, what’s been so interesting is so Graeme. I spent after I pivoted from being a full time professional artist, there was a period where I was, I was making my living as a professional artist, and then also helping other people get creative, creatively unstuck as a creativity instigator. So I kind of had two things going on at the same time, because I had gotten so burned out making my living as an artist, and had to figure out how to get back to making art for my own fulfillment and enjoyment. And that’s what led to these 10 guide posts that helped me get past my own creative block, and then discovering that what helped me helped other people. And that’s what ultimately led to the book and this sort of second business helping other people get creatively unstuck, and then realizing that this would be, you know, beneficial for organizations, for teams, for, for groups in the, you know, in the corporate space. And what was really interesting is when I made that pivot, first of all, it, you know, it’s telling about it. Now, it seems like, Oh, I just went from this, you know, I went from A to B to C. It actually was not that easy, because I, because I didn’t come from a COVID. Corporate background. I didn’t have a network in the corporate world, and I didn’t have any experience in that world, and I didn’t know anything about selling in the B to B space. So it was kind of like climbing Mount Everest. You know, I had first had to get the base camp, which, which, in and of itself, is quite a climb, right? So it that, and I had a lot of imposter complex, so I had to get past all of this mental gunk in my head about, you know, how who’s going to buy from me? You know, what am I doing? How do I do all this. So that was quite a challenge. And, and then I also, interestingly, part of part of that journey was working with a, essentially, kind of a coach who helped me in this, you know, learning how to sell as an, you know, small, very small business into big companies. And one of the things that this person that I worked with said at the time was, you know, it’s great that you come from this Corp, this non corporate background, you bring, you know, this very different perspective. That’s great that you’re a creative So, so this person really tried to validate my background as a benefit that I was, you know, bringing instead of a deficit, yeah? But at the same time, they said, you know, you’re gonna have to wear a suit, which, of course, isn’t true, but there’s something about that message that lodged in my brain and and sort of hooked into my imposter complex and made me believe a story that I made up in my own head that I had to somehow close it away who I was, that I couldn’t show up fully as my creative self. So what happened Graeme is that I never talked about the fact that I was a Juilliard trained dancer. I didn’t talk about the fact that I had a 15 year career as a visual artist. I didn’t talk about the fact that I had been a jazz singer. I didn’t talk about any of these things. And I just sort of, I didn’t show up as myself for it was about six years, and I was starting to get really kind of burned out in this business that I had, you know, been growing, and it took me a long time to realize what was happening. And so about a year ago, I mean, I realized, you know, I really need to integrate these two sides. I had this, I still had this list of people who had been following me as a creative and a creativity instigator that I was never emailing to because I didn’t have time. And then I had this list that I was slowly growing, as you know, my my consultancy, this new business, that I was putting all of my time and attention on but I didn’t feel like I was showing up really, as myself to them. I was showing up as, sort of like I’m a communications person, but that’s not what I was trained in in school. That just happens to be what I had been hired to do by during the pandemic and and I felt kind of like a fraud. And so finally, at some point, I don’t know it was. It took a while, but eventually, with enough I don’t know, feedback from people that I trusted in my life, coaches and other people, I realized that I really needed to reclaim who I really am, and so I did a lot of work on that over the past year or so. Yeah, it was about a year ago when I made the decision that to make speaking a big part of my business and to show up fully as as a the creative, the multifaceted creative that I am, and I don’t know that I answered your actual question in
Graeme Cowan 19:24
we did? We have talked about lots of things there, which is what I was hoping for. But where did you get your first paid corporate gear? When did, when did you know you get money in the bank from working for an organization away from the arts, per se,
Melissa Dinwiddie 19:41
yeah, I think the first paid gig actually was Uber I think I think it was a day long. It was sort of a presentation, communication. And workshop where I incorporated some Lego serious play, which they specifically contacted me about, and some improv activities. And it was a combination of data scientists and I believe, some engineers, I can’t remember which different departments they were all from.
Graeme Cowan 20:25
And, you know, that’s a big, a big leap, you know, in terms of what you’ve done before to, you know, doing that work with that group with a very different skill set. What did they just Google about Lego blocks. So how did they find you?
Speaker 1 20:43
Yeah, so that was interesting. They had contacted me like a year before that specifically about LEGO serious play, which is a methodology that I had been trained in in 2017 and not long after, I have multiple certifications in Lego series play, and they somebody at Uber had Googled Lego series play because they had a friend who knew about it. I don’t remember how they found out about Lego series play. They did a Google search, found me because I was local, phoned me or emailed me through my website, and ended up not hiring me at that point, they ended up going with somebody else, who was, I don’t know, less expensive or something I can’t remember, but I found out later, when they came back to me, it was maybe several months or a year later or something, they came back to me and I, and I ended up getting the scoop from the contact. It was a different person who contacted me, but from the same team that they had hired some person to give a talk on. I don’t remember it was something, and nobody really liked it. And they hired me for more money than my original, than my original ask. So it all worked out fabulous.
Graeme Cowan 22:04
You talked briefly before about the create the impossible framework. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? You mentioned there were three steps before, but yeah, just a bit more background about those three elements of the impossible framework?
Speaker 1 22:22
Yeah, so the create the impossible framework is a repeatable process that really helps people get past blocks. And it’s the three steps that might sound deceptively simple, but as we all know, sometimes the most powerful tools are really the most simple. So step one is play hard. And this is not, you know, work hard, play hard, or go to Vegas and get wild. This just means to embrace your inner four year old. It means to be open to experimentation and play follow your curiosity. This is, you know, when you’re when we’re in the mind, space of being like a little kid. Little kids don’t care about winning awards. Or is it good enough? Or is it, am I going to make money from it? They’re just experimenting. They’re they’re seeing, Oh, what would happen if I tried this? You know, that’s the mind space that we want to be in when we’re, you know, trying out new ideas, and we want to just think quantity, not quality. That’s, that’s one of my guide posts from my creative, Creative Sandbox, way book as well. So that’s step one, and you can apply this in I’m, I do. You can go to my YouTube account or go to my blog. I every week I put out a new article with an accompanying video talking about the framework and how it applies in just so many different areas. Yeah. So that’s step one is play hard. Step two is make crap. And this is very intentional. So one of the things that happens is that that keeps us stuck is that we get so mired in the idea that everything we produce has to be amazing, yeah, that everything has to be, you know, excellent, perfect right out of the gate. And that is paralyzing. And so what we need to do is lower the bar down, not just to the ground, but below the ground. We need to allow ourselves to make crap, allow ourselves to suck, which is really hard when we have trained all our lives for excellence, right? It’d be great. Of course, we want to be great. We all want to be great. But in order to in order to be great, in order to unsuck, in order to be excellent, we have to first allow ourselves to make crap absolutely and so that very, very intentionally allows. Ourselves to make crap. So that’s step number two, yeah, just let yourself produce a lot of crap. Step number three is learn fast, so you play hard, you make a lot of crap, and then you learn from it. Yeah, let every experience be a growth opportunity, yeah, yeah. And this is a constant cycle, so it’s very simple, but if you are constantly allowing yourself to go through this cycle and and be aware and mindful of where you are in this cycle, you become unstoppable, and it will lead to more breakthroughs and innovations. And I have a visual on my website that shows it as it looks like a, looks like a, like a corkscrew, like a sort of a rainbow colored corkscrew that leads to to breakthroughs and innovations, and it is a repeatable cycle. And here’s the thing, this is what my keynote is about. Is that, you know, it’s so easy to believe that overcoming blocks, overcoming any kind of whether it’s a creative block or any other kind of block, that that it’s a one and done sort of thing, that overcoming any kind of limiting belief. Oh, great, done. But that’s not how it works. We have to continually challenge whatever is, whatever our stuckness is, whatever our blocks are. And it’s actually the process of continually challenging those blocks, those whatever it is that’s getting in our way, that is what is going to lead to breakthrough innovation. Yeah,
Graeme Cowan 26:46
I remember reading about this experiment, and I can’t remember who put it together, but essentially, you know, every group was given, you know, a set of 15 things, you know, sort of straight rulers, round this, round that. And the idea was, was to build the highest structure, you know, using these 15 things. And I think I’m recording correctly, but the the slowest and the worst was senior leadership, you know, working together, because there’s so much into planning and looking at hypotheticals and all this sort of stuff. And the fastest were school kids, because they they they learnt by doing. And, you know, rather than trying to find the perfect one, they kept on trying things. But they often got the highest, highest thing. So when you are working with people who are used to being right, who are very deliberate in how they make decisions, and they’re the leaders of a group, how do you get them to change their perspective? How do you get them to be open to playing hard, making crap and learning fast.
Melissa Dinwiddie 28:03
Well, the you know the logistics of it, when I go in and I work with a team, whether it’s a leadership team or, you know, a team of researchers, it’s the same how I go in and I and I work with teams. I use play based activities, typically drawn from the world of improv, or sometimes they’re Lego serious play activities, but they’re almost always play based. And why do I use play plays? And first of all, it’s an equalizer and it’s a connector and it loosens people up. Now, do I get pushback? Sometimes I do sometimes, and and if I get too much pushback, then obviously it’s not going to be the right group for me to work with. Sometimes I have people who are like, well, we’re not going to play. And if those are the people who were, you know, who I’m dealing with, then they’re not going to bring me in. But if I have, if I have a contact, if I have somebody is advocating for my work, then they’ll bring me in. And if they, you know, if they see my client list, and they see the transformation that I create, then they’ll be open minded enough to bring me in. Interestingly, yeah, it is often the leaders who are the most resistant at first, but they’re the ones who see the value in it, yeah, and experience the most transformation. So it is really interesting to see. And here’s the thing I the the what, what people hear play and they think frivolous, unimportant, or they think recess, yeah? And that’s not at all, yeah, what I’m doing when I go in and I work with teams and organizations, what I’m doing is strategic and transformational. Yeah? So I’m never going in and I’m like, Okay, we’re going to have a recess and we’re just going to have fun together. That’s not what I do do. We have fun. Hell yeah, we have a lot of fun. But what we’re doing through the fun is incredibly transformational, and there’s so much dot connecting, and I’m never doing an activity that is just, quote, unquote, just for fun, there’s always, there’s always something incredibly strategic to the activity. So let me give you an example. Here’s, I do a lot of work around communication. I do a lot of work around what I call the three C’s, connection, communication and creativity, because that is the Venn diagram. The intersection of those three C’s is where community innovation lies. It’s really hard to have breakthrough innovation. If any one of those three C’s is broken in your organization, you have a hard time having you know, breakthrough innovations happening. So I do a lot of work around communication and helping teams communicate for greater influence and impact. Yeah. So one of the activities that I do a lot of is in order to help teams communicate with others who don’t necessarily have the same kinds of expertise that they do, same kind of context that they do. This is really common. So for example, I where I’ve worked with a lot of researchers inside of Facebook or meta. They come from a very academic background. They are used to communicating with other researchers, and they speak sort of researches. And when they talk to people who are not researchers, they it’s like they’re speaking Greek to somebody who’s Italian, right? So how do you teach them to communicate with their cross functional teammates in a way that their cross functional teammates are going to understand? So I use this activity I call the time traveler. I pair people up. Partner A is from the present time. Everything’s normal for them. Partner B is a time traveler from 500 years ago. So we first, we have a little conversation before I break people into their pairs about what would be different for this person from 500 years ago. It’s 1525, so what’s, how is life different? So we do a little, quite a bit, right? We do a little popcorn. Share, oh, there’s no electricity. There’s no cars. People are riding horses instead of car, you know, things like that, right? Maybe they, they didn’t have running water, you know, whatever. There’s no modern medicine, just popcorn. Shares about how life is different, right? Then I send them off to the breakup rooms, and I say Partner A your cell phone. Imagine that your cell phone has just gone off. Your job is to explain what your cell phone is to your time traveling partner. But here’s a catch. Remember that your time traveling partner, there’s a high likelihood they’re gonna think you’re a witch. So in addition to explaining what this device is, you also have to convince them not to condemn you to burn at the stake as a witch. Yeah, so you have two minutes to do this. Yeah? Now it is an impossible task. I’ve done it myself. You know, periodically I have to partner with somebody if there’s not an even number in the room or whatever, and it’s makes people laugh, and it’s really hard. We come back together. And I ask people, How many witches are in the room? Half the room always raises their hands because it’s impossible. And then we talk about, okay, so time travelers, is there anything that your partner did that was effective? And so we that bubbles up, and invariably, somebody used an analogy that made sense to the time traveler. Aha. So people start connecting dots. So then they switch, we switch roles, and I send them off again with a slightly different task. This time, it’s not a cell phone, it’s something else. And so now they have a leg up, and they learn from this experience. It’s very memorable. It sticks because they had this, this experience where they got their emotions involved. They were laughing. They were, you know, they don’t forget this. And so I get feedback and stories, you know, the next week, when they come back to the second part of the, you know, multi week session program, oh my gosh. I was talking with my cross function teammate, trying to explain something. To them, I was it was getting really frustrating, and then I remembered the time traveler exercise, and I realized it’s not it’s not because they’re stupid, it’s not because they’re being a jerk. I need to find an analogy. I need to think from their point of view, what’s their context? What’s an analogy that they will understand, and that’s my responsibility.
Graeme Cowan 35:23
Yeah, I really like that. It’s, you know, it does force you to think and understand that people are coming from different perspectives, and especially 500 years apart. You mentioned just just then that, you know you think your assignments have been multi week. Does it start off with a problem that the the group has and wanting you to help with that problem? What? Why is the reason? What’s some significant reasons you brought in and then how did you go through those weeks to deliver what was required.
Melissa Dinwiddie 36:03
Yeah, thanks for asking that question. Yes. The answer to that is that yes, my clients will come to me because they have some specific problem, some specific challenge that they need help with. So one of those challenges is often we need to communicate more effectively for greater impact and influence. That’s a really common one. Another one that I love to help with is we need to innovate on a timeline. We need to out innovate the competition, and we need help with that. So, you know, I help with the three C’s so that they can have, you know, more breakthroughs and innovations. I We another problem might be, we have these brilliant analytical thinkers, but they don’t think they’re creative. And it’s really hard to be creative when you don’t think you are. So I can come in and help with that. That’s one of my sweet spots, is helping people tap into their creativity and really identify that they are creative and and have that permission to identify as a creative person when they haven’t before. So that’s another way that I can help
Graeme Cowan 37:18
you’ve had worked with some pretty amazing clients. You mentioned, matter and Uber, Salesforce, Google, Stanford was you obviously had success in one area and got recommendations or people left one company, went to another company. How did, how did your business grow across those multiple very highly reputable organizations.
Melissa Dinwiddie 37:44
Yeah, it’s, it has been some of some of all of the above. It often, you know, business is so much of relationships. So it is often, like, I got a lot of work inside of meta because of one initial engagement, and that one went so well that that manager told all of her friends inside of meta, and then I got, kept getting hired and rehired and rehired And rehired. So that was a case of referrals, yeah. And, you know, I’ve gotten work from LinkedIn, and then same thing, you know, then that turns into a referral, yeah. And, and then there’s the random, you know, like the Uber job was just getting somebody Googled Lego series play and then contacted me through site. So that happens as well. So it is kind of a variety of different ways that people find me
Graeme Cowan 38:51
quite often. People can be stuck because of poor relationships, breakdown in relationships, not communicating, well, not seeing another group’s perspective. Is it the play things that you do that helps to break down that, or are there other methods or tools you use to address if there could be a stressful relationship between two people out of the group, for example?
Melissa Dinwiddie 39:20
Well, that’s not really my particular sweet spot, the individual relationship conflicts. That’s not the area that I really focus on. If that comes up, then, you know, I’ll deal with it in the session. But, but people don’t come to me specifically for, you know, teammate a and teammate B are having an issue. Can you help us with that? That’s that is not really my area. Yeah,
Graeme Cowan 39:47
no worries. And you know, as an innovation strategist, you’ve applied that to your own life, really, haven’t you? You’ve had so many different careers, from dancing. Into singing, to calligraphy, to all sorts of other areas. I always finish by just asking this question, which is, what do you know? What you know now today? What advice would you give your 20 year old self so as an innovation strategist, what advice would you give someone who has just started dance, you know, becoming a dancer?
Melissa Dinwiddie 40:29
Oh my gosh. Well, when I think back to when I was a dancer, I was so obsessed with dance in to the degree that I did not want to do kind of anything else it was not I would not say that it was really healthy. So what I would say to my 20 year old self is, and actually I got injured, and that was the end of my dance career, and I spent five years really on the quest for the miracle cure. So what I would say to her is, you, I know you don’t believe this now, but things are going to get better, and you are going to discover so much joy and richness in your life that I know this feels like the worst thing in the world has just happened, and you’re not. You’re there’s no way you can believe this right now, but life is actually going to get better and more rich because this just happened. Yeah, that’s what I would say to her. Well, that’s
Graeme Cowan 41:39
fantastic advice for all of us. You know, we think, because we all have our ups and downs, our setbacks, our adversity and all that sort of thing. And it’s really a lovely common theme that I get, sort of asking people that question, you’re not to take myself so seriously, just to know that, you know, keep doing the right thing each day, and things will unfold, but we do agonize a lot about the present moment. We I remember I had Amy Edmondson on the podcast here, and, you know, she is, you know, famous for psychological safety, and I worked there, but she said, You know, I’ve always strived to do great work, and often got really worried about things. And she said, I wish I’d asked myself, What do I need to learn to address that? And it’s the same thing, isn’t it? Just being in the present moment, being open to new avenues, new options, new directions.
Melissa Dinwiddie 42:44
I wish I would have been more open to new avenues and options when I was 20, and instead of, instead of being, uh, kind of stuck in a holding pattern for ever, it led me to where I am now. So
Graeme Cowan 43:00
it’s been a real pleasure catching up, Melissa, and thank you so much for being part of the caring CEO. Thank you so much for having me. Graeme, this has been a real pleasure for me as well. And you’ve got something to share with our listeners. Is that right?
Melissa Dinwiddie 43:14
I do? Yes. I have an impact innovation checklist, which will help people actually take action and get creative, basically in 10 minutes. It’s something that you can use every day, and the link for that is bit.ly/caringceothank you all one word, all lowercase.
Graeme Cowan 43:43
Fabulous. We’ll put a link of that in the show notes as well. Thanks so much.
Melissa Dinwiddie 43:49
Thank you.
Graeme Cowan 43:53
Excellent. Thanks so much. Melissa, that was great.
