#89 Start with “Yes”, Katrina Troughton, Managing Director, Adobe ANZ

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

• What caring in the workplace means for Katrina.
• Going beyond policies to build cultures grounded in trust, respect, and genuine human connection. 
• How the best outcomes often come from focusing on the intent behind decisions rather than rigidly following rules.
• How strong teams are built through openness, diversity of thought, and creating space for every voice to be heard.

RESOURCES

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Transcript from the interview

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SPEAKERS

Graeme Cowan, Katrina Troughton

Graeme Cowan  00:00

Today’s guest is Katrina Troughton, and she’s the managing director of Adobe Australia. She’s previously been the managing director of IBM Australia and New Zealand, and she’s taken a real interest in careers, particularly women in technology, and she served on committees for TAFE New South Wales, but also the Department of customer service in New South Wales, we have a wide ranging discussion around topics that are very close to my heart, self care, and we hear about the things she does to keep fuel her own tank, both her physical energy, her emotional energy and her intellectual well being. We then talk a lot about getting and building the most successful teams, and she has really practical advice about things that have really worked for her. She has great advice that she would give her 20 year old self, and I really encourage you to listen to this. It’s at the end, but it was something a mentor shared with her, which she then applied, and it had a remarkable impact on her career, but also her life. And there’s a lesson that for all of us, there’s lots to learn from this discussion, and I’m sure you’ll really enjoy Katrina’s warm style and ability to simplify things. Enjoy.

Graeme Cowan  01:39

It’s a real pleasure to welcome Katrina Troughton, to the caring CEO. Welcome Katrina.

Katrina Troughton  01:46

Thank you very much. Graeme, it’s great to have the opportunity to have this conversation with you.

Graeme Cowan  01:51

Katrina, what does care in the workplace mean to you?

Katrina Troughton  01:56

Well, I mean, it starts with the fact that I think you know, as anyone who’s an employer, you have a duty of care, and you know the policies and things you think about putting around it, but you know, when I think about it, I think at its core, it’s about your culture. You know, our people are our greatest asset is something that you hear regularly, and in our business, it’s so true. So I think building the culture that starts with respect, with having trust in place, you know, are just vital for us to be able to ensure our employees can turn up every day be their very best. And that culture that says, when I say, how are you I mean it, I wasn’t just saying something automatically. I mean it because we do want to create that environment. You know, that’s what I think it means to me. How do we create the environment, how people can be their very best, and we’re doing, you know, the right things as an organization to support that. When you think about your career, and you know, you had a long, centered IBM, and also now with Adobe, Were there certain people that really personified that care for you, that you know, that were good leaders, but you could tell that they also really cared about the individual? Look, I have to say, I think I’ve been incredibly lucky through my career that I’ve probably had a number of those examples. I do remember, you know, even as you know, a graduate when I joined IBM, which was in New Zealand at the time, the culture that our CEO at the time built was one that was very much that everybody mattered, that you had a level of trust, that you that you felt like you could build a relationship, that meant your opinion mattered, but also that you could raise things in the right way. And I distinctly remember things like being in being invited to a round table, you know, a group of people in the office or across the business, just to talk about key things with the CEO being pretty, pretty worried as a young grad about turning up and being, you know, what do you say, or what don’t you say? And and the CEO at the time, or that, in that case, managing director at the time, you know, actually took the time to say, now, you know, Katrina, I do want to hear from you, your input, your input matters and but I’m going to come back to you next in this amazing ability to to make me feel like, oh gosh, better say something, but also give me a little bit of time and not put me completely on the spot. But I think that really built the culture of you know, you know what everyone has in a respect for individuals, listening to what’s said, wanting to hear those opinions. That underpins the trust that says you felt like you could say, I think I might have too much going on, or I need some time out. And I remember distinctly when I went back, I had the chance to go back to New Zealand as the managing director for IBM at the time, and I hired a new person into the business, and she said to me, couple of weeks and I said, How’s it going? She said, It’s actually been amazing. I feel like I’m treated like an adult. What do you mean? And she said, Well, you know, she said she had a little kid. She was, you know, always juggling drop offs and everything else. But she said, when I walk into the office here, people say, Hi, how are you not look at their watch and where have you been? You don’t run on a clock. You have this level of trust that I’m doing what I need to do, and if I need to, you know, take time look after my kids and my family, or do something else you trust me to get that done and and I think so that that was wonderful for me, because I think it was something I was, you know, sort of I learned from, but felt like you were able to just Continue. So they’re definitely examples. I’ve also had and seen leaders. You know, one of the other things which, which I think we can get our self stuck on, is this idea of, we have all these policies, but what really matters is the intent of those policies, not always the policy. And, you know, big organizations can get a little done policy versus but what are we trying to do? And I think I saw and I had leaders who really supported you, making sure that intent was followed and not just policy. And another example that I had was I was asked to work on a project looking at how we could change part time work, and allow part time workers. And particularly there was a cohort of people who were looking to potentially start to semi retire and were looking for work. And one of our teams, the finance team, were really keen. They have big peaks and troughs. You know that big end of quarter starter, quarter peak, they have of work and then sort of troughs. And so they were really keen, I said this, you know, a bit of part time workers. And some people who maybe are already part of the team today, but could move into part time work and help us, would make all the difference, you know, reduce stress, really

enable people to, you know, do quality work. And so it’s, of course, makes a lot of things. So off the team went and got stuck, because our policy was all about how many hours per week you worked, and the whole, you know, the whole setup and contracts and everything was there, and obviously not the intent. We want people to be available to work part time. And so the support I had from my general manager when I went back and said, Look, I think we’ve got a situation here where, if we change the policy, adjusted some contracts, I don’t think it’s that much work to do it, but if we were willing to do that work, I think we’ve got a really nice solution. And the answer was, you know, of course, do it. Not, you know, tell me more. It was just, of course, do it. And that whole, you know, get on and do it. You know, get the get that alignment right, do the right thing for people. And, you know, all around that was an amazing solution. Yeah, so I think examples like that just are the things that you pick up on in the way leaders respond to supporting you when you look for that. And I probably have another, I’ll share one more, another one that was really similar to that was I had a really amazing leader in my business, you know, quite a senior manager and and she took maternity leave, came back, and after a short period of time, I know, a couple of months, said, Look, you know, My daughter needs some extra care. I’m really struggling with full time, but I’d like to repose, and I found someone that I think I could job share with. And of course, our job sharing policy was very clear, and was basically individual contributors hadn’t been done for a leader. And I said, you know, okay, show me. Let’s talk through. How do we make it work? Was really, it was really a nice solution for another person who was on maternity leave coming back to to people who want to do part time work, had great skills, had thought it through. And again, it was another example when I took it up. It’s like the policies here. But can we do something different? Can we create something that I think is going to give a better outcome. You know, just leadership was just like, Absolutely, just go do it. So I think it’s that willingness to really, you know, continue to work, to intend, to not keep completely stuck on policy. If you have leaders, and that’s what you’ve, you know, heard of you, you feel really supported to do it more couple of examples.

Graeme Cowan  09:44

And it is a matter of common sense, isn’t it taking over really working at what’s going to work better? And you know, I’ve heard another great example of that with with Bunnings, and their oldest employee is 91 and and they have several in their 80s, but they also have this practice for retirees that you know, if you’ve learned the Bunning systems and culture in one store, if you decide to do the Graeme Nomad thing and go all over Australia, you can go to any store in Australia and just say, Look, I’m here for six weeks or whatever, and get a role. And that’s just, you know, in those regional places, it’s so hard to get experienced people, but to have this mobile group coming through, it’s just clever.

Katrina Troughton  10:36

Yeah, it’s clever, but it’s just, it’s a great outcome. It’s reframing the opportunity or taking a challenge. And it’s, yeah, it is amazing, though, how it you know, you can miss those opportunities. It’s not easy. It takes. It does take people wanting to lean in and make that difference. Yeah, in my book, great leaders care, I talk about a mindset about championing self care, crew care and red zone care. And so self care is how we put fuel in our own tanks. What do you do to keep yourself well and to have fuel in your tank? Yeah, look, I think for me, I just always think of balance across a whole number of things. And I think, you know, for me, path to balance, it’s family. I certainly get given a lot of perspective, or that gets reframed regularly. I have three boys that are wonderful, but, you know, they’re pretty blunt, and you always have a bit of fun. I think they it regrounds. You were just in just pure gratitude as well. And, you

know, and you I just find you’re always learning little lessons, listening differently. And so families being really important for me, I think exercise, and you know, whether that be, you know, going for a run in the gym, but but also, personally, it’s the fresh air and making sure I get a walk in the bush or get a walk outside, really important and and I’ve always in love. I’ve always enjoyed reading, so I leave that, and now I actually often combine going for a run with listening to a book, which I quite enjoy too. So now I’m finding that’s quite good. You can put them together, but yeah, and then I think the other pieces, you know, just feeling like I’m able to give back, and some of it’s, you know, certainly at work, where you feel like you have that opportunity to help people and customers and and change outcomes. But it’s also definitely, you know, into the community. And I personally have always had a, you know, pretty high passion around just education and supporting education and learning pathways. Have had the opportunity to work in a number of different places where I’m able to sort of contribute there, because you know, you know skills, you know education can absolutely change outcomes. The moment, you know, feel extremely lucky to be able to work on the TAFE, New South Wales board and and just a phenomenal set of, you know, teachers who work there, and the incredible difference they make to people’s lives, it’s really visible. So, yeah, I think having a project like that, or being able to feel like I can do that is super important. And I think the last part, you know, you talked about self care, I think it’s the last part for me, is just knowing your triggers, knowing what throws you off balance. The more you know it, I feel, the more you can plan for it, or try and, you know, work around it. But knowing it also means you’ve you You then have the chance to think about, okay, but how do I get back on balance? Yeah, because simple ones that sleep, you know, when you do, I used to do a lot of travel, you know, that can have a big impact. So you got to think about a planet and know what gets you back? So, yeah, yeah. But I feel like you just have to keep adjusting it. Never quite get it right. What do you like to read? Actually, just a range. I mean, it goes from, you know, of course, sometime you know newspapers, bit of news, you know, business news. Love some of the books. You know, different ways people approach leadership’s interesting, but I absolutely find I have to rebalance that with fiction. I am part of a book club, which I actually love, because then I read stuff I would never probably choose to read, and I found that it’s been really good. Doesn’t mean I love it all, but it really, you know, just changes perspectives. And, you know, I’ve enjoyed that a lot, too. And then, of course, you have the opportunity to get together and have a good chat about it, of course. And that piece is, you know, most of the time we talk about the book, but there’s a lot of other stuff covered. And that’s a that’s another important part of self care, I think, having those sort of groups and, you know, like minded friends that you don’t have that chance to get together with,

Katrina Troughton  14:58

with,

Graeme Cowan  14:59

Yeah, fill in the phone not the least bit handy, and so Men’s Shed is not for me, or would never work

Katrina Troughton  15:05

But maybe a book club.

Graeme Cowan  15:07

No, don’t go to book club, because I do read, but not I read a lot of, I guess, non fiction, or so much. My wife is a voracious read of everything, a bit like yourself. But one of the things that I’ve formed, and it’s been going for 25 years now, is an investment. Club, and so it’s, it’s 11 guys, and we get together once a month, and we alternate at one place. And you know, about 75% of it is social and catching up. And then, you know, 25% is then just talking about what we might buy and sell, but over the 25 years, then you’ve got some tips. Yeah, we learned that we needed a bit of help, and we ended up finding a tool called stock doctor, which looks at everything independently and, you know, does a quick appraisal. But by far the most important thing is the camaraderie that’s come out of it. And you know, over 25 years we’ve had, you know, guys go through divorces and financial crises and parents that pass away and and even one member has passed away. And so you do really build up a lot of trust, a lot of camaraderie. It’s a lovely to have rituals like that sort of happen automatically, but make a real difference. And I’m sure you’re probably aware, or may have heard, of the Harvard adult development study. It’s the longest wellbeing study ever done, and it started in 1929 actually followed 600 men because there weren’t any women at Harvard in those days, but they followed them every year of their life until they’ve all died now, basically. And the overwhelming conclusion was that those that had the longest life, the most affluent life, the lowest stress, the most reward, those that having care and supportive relationships around us, and that applies just as much in our personal life as well as our work life, doesn’t it?

Katrina Troughton  17:10

You know, the two go together, you can’t I mean, you know work life balance? I mean life is work and work is life. I mean, for me, it’s really difficult to pull them all apart. You know, I feel, you know, absolutely lucky that some of my, you know, best long term friends were ones that I, you know, had and met in my early career and have retained. And when I think about how important that group is, you need people within the workplace you can talk to. You need people outside the workplace. You can talk to about things in the workplace, and then you need people outside the workplace who tell you that I want to hear about the work, in my opinion, like I said, I mean my family and grounding. You know that, you know, whatever mom I don’t want to hear about, it’s a good thing. And actually, when my oldest son was about three, I was traveling a bit in my job, so it’d be away a bit, and, you know, so really conscious of trying to make sure that I came home, you know, I don’t if work at the door, but came home and spent a bit of time. And so I’d always say, Okay, let’s sit down. Should we play? Should we build some Lego? Should we do something? And he used to say to me, Yes, Mum, sit here. Okay, how are we going to build some Lego? No, you’re going to sit Okay, I’m going to build. No, I’m going to you say, you watch. And, oh my gosh, it taught me a lot, right? You know, actually sitting and not doing something is was hard for me, yeah, but actually incredibly good for me. So it’s like, it’s back to the sometimes being there is the most important thing, and you don’t always have to have magic words or be doing something. Sometimes it’s just being there. And, yeah. So, like I said, lots of lessons I get. I won’t share some of the other ones with them, but moving on to crew care or team care, and I guess, getting teams that are really cohesive and work well together, what are the, what are the components you look for in in building a good team look, you know, I think especially in our workplace and at that senior level, you know, clearly, you start with things like skills and attitude and buy into making a culture that is what we need to have for success. And I think you know, for me anyway, you know that absolutely starts with being able to build a trusted environment where people are able to, you know, give feedback, feel like they can bring their viewpoint to the table, and it will be treated with respect, you know, and that we will, you know, be open to new ideas. And you know that inclusiveness, I definitely try and look for diverse city and thought background teams as part of what you build. But I also find in the corporate environment, you don’t always get to make all those choices all at once. You’re always having some level of change across the team. So it is about how you build, and keep building and keep bringing and adding, you know, into that team. But I think those things, you know, respect, how you build that culture of respect and trust. You know, there’s a lot of different, you know, ways to do it, but most definitely just it still comes down to spending time and being willing to give time to, you know, to actually building a team, as opposed to time on the how we’re going to, you know, deliver the numbers this quarter, or how we’re going to do X, Y, Z, you actually have to give time and permission for people to spend time on their development and development into the team. Yeah, yeah. See a topic you could talk about for a long time, a long time. You know, one of the biggest human desires is to feel that we belong, that we’re connected, and people respect us for who we are. Is there anything that you consciously do to sort of build that sense of belonging? You know, that’s a great question. I think I definitely work hard to ensure that when we, for example, have meetings, that we are leaving space for everyone to have their say. And I think you know different times and different roles, you you use different tools. And I’ll give you an example. One of the things that I learned, you know, when I was a as a manager, far earlier in my career, was and I had a technical team, or a number of technical people, and a number of sales people and marketing, you know, so a very mixed team, different people need different preparation, even to have a good discussion. And I found, you know, that taking the time to preempt what might be discussed and make sure people knew, and then asking them and telling or asking them not telling them. But, you know, asking them to be ready with their, you know, thoughts on it. You find different personalities react differently. Some people like that and need that. They want to be prepared. They want to have had the chance to think it through before they’re going to feel like they they to, you know, add their opinion. Others don’t even read it or just turn up and tell you, so, yeah, quite often with a good salesperson too. But I think it’s like that just starting to understand what environment you need to enable people to feel like they’re not. You know what one person’s happy to and likes and sees as a free discussion, others can feel like you’re putting them on the spot. Yeah. But I think it’s just trying to, you know, learn and understand using different techniques and but really making sure that you’re, you are trying to be open to different, different inputs. I’ve taken the chance across, across my career, to to be involved in a number of groups. You know, we obviously have, you know, Adobe for all Adobe, and you know, groups of people who represent different parts of the organization. Or, for example, we have a fitness and well being or a well being group. We have people who, you know, our indigenous team and so various other teams. And I think taking the time to be part of those taught me so much. And I talked earlier about the retirement part time work, you know, that was part of when I was asked to lead a will be part of a group that was looking at exactly that, you know, our workforce who were retiring, and how we might support retaining some of that talent. You know, so hadn’t never thought about it before. You learn a little new perspective. So I think always thinking about what’s a new perspective or a new you know, group input you can get is really important, and that comes down to, I think, being just curious, like interested, curious and open to new ideas. I’ve had that absolute privilege across my career of having worked in a lot of different countries. So, you know, culturally, you know, you learn a lot about the fact that there can be more than one way to achieve an outcome. There’s not a right way or a wrong way. There’s just different ways, and some of that gets displayed through culture as well. Yeah, there’s a few things anyway.

Graeme Cowan  24:37

What do you do when it appears there’s sort of two people in the team that have quite different views on a subject, and you can sense some tension there, but it’s almost like Silent tension. Is there anything that you do to help get the topic discussed or,

Katrina Troughton  24:58

Oh, look, that’s a Yeah, that’s an interesting question. The answer is, it depends. You know, I think one of the things you also reflect on in leadership is, when do you need to intervene? When do you know? When do you really let let things play out? And you know how you make that call. So I think what you’re talking about there is tension can be really healthy. It’s actually important. We want different views. So the next question is, okay, is this tension that you’re sensing? Do you think it’s going to, you know, have a negative outcome? Is it directed in a place that you think it’s not going to be good for either the people or the business? Yeah, and, you know, so then you think about, well, if it is, then what can I do? Is it a conversation with each of them separately? Is it thinking about a slightly more closed door conversation or discussion with both at the same time? Is it bringing in an independent or a third party to maybe, you know, depending on the size of it, perhaps, you know, own a topic and help drive it. So I think there’s lots of different ways, of course, so amazing, you know, support through our employee experience team, you know, HR, and they have lots of things they can do as well. But I think it comes down to, you know, like I said, when do you intervene? When do you allow people to learn that? And certainly, you know, I am a believer that many times a little bit of time and you know, a little bit of direction, can allow people to sort those kind of things out themselves. But if not, then, you know, you think about what you can do.

Graeme Cowan  26:39

We have some helpful resources that you can find at WeCARE365.com.au, the first is our Mental ill health calculator, which is a quick and simple way to work out what poor mental health costs your organisation in lost productivity and employee turnover. You will also find our building a mentally healthy culture checklist, which shows how to launch a great initiative and keep that momentum going. These resources can be found at WeCARE365.com.au.

Graeme Cowan  27:13

One of the things I had David Barnett, who was previously the CEO of Pearson APAC, and he talked about a method he used called mining for discontent, and it’s something he learned from Patrick Lencioni and his work on dysfunctional teams. And so that would be what I think he’d do, is just sort of knowing there was things there. He would put a question out there that prompted it to be discussed, and I thought that was a really interesting approach as well, exactly. So I certainly didn’t have anything like as clever a title for it. But he didn’t make it up, he stresses that.

Katrina Troughton  27:53

But that’s the interesting thing, right? First, is it enough you know? How do you test as you know as to whether this is something you need to intervene or add to or not, you know, you ask a few questions. But I think perhaps that leads to what I think actually becomes, you know, something you spend a lot of time on, which is, how do you listen to what’s unsaid? How are, you know, trying to, you know, hone that skill, and then, you know, understand, like I said, is it something you do it? You can ask in a big group, you can take the next step on and then what do you do about it? But I certainly think there’s a real role for leaders, often to give people permission, and sometimes that when you’re listening to that what’s not quite said, and I’ve personally seen it with people who’ve perhaps you know, transitioning back into work, having had a break, had been or have had a death in the family, or had some major event, that piece of how you are, you really good. Yes, I’m good reading a bit more, watching people sometimes, you know, the opportunity is to give people permission to let you know how they really are, and permission to, you know, do something about it. If you need a bit more time, take it. You know that that whole piece, I think, is really important. You know, another example, actually, another example of that that, I think, sorry, I didn’t mean to talk. I think another example of that might be, you know, something we saw in covid when, you know, many of our teams were just moved straight into crisis mode. They were working, you know, 24 by seven, you know, they would do, you know, checkpoint calls and be on calls at night and first thing in the morning and checking on stuff around the clock. And we all know there are many people in many environments who you know that was that made the difference for all of us during that time, but the giving permission piece as we sort of. I saw things start to at least normalize into what made more sense, and we really weren’t in crisis mode. I saw a lot of people that were still working as if we’re in a crisis, still doing meetings at night, starting to, you know, get burnt out and or at least looking like they could. And so you spent some time going well. So why are you on that meeting? Why is it still happening, you know, and giving people permission to say, you know, I think it’s okay to stop that now and to reset, you know, if you’re worried about fine monitor, but giving people permission to stop doing things or to take more time. I think they’re sometimes really important. Yeah, about encouraging intelligent risk taking in a team or organization. What are your thoughts around that? You know, we get an industry that’s driven by innovation and change. The biggest thing we bring to customers is usually, you know, you know, how are you going to solve a challenge? How are you going to do things differently? How are you going to, you know, change to drive new outcomes that you need to achieve. So I don’t you know, around any piece of innovation, there’s always some risk. So I think, and I’m the two going hand in hand, from my perspective. So I think it absolutely is, you know, making sure that the right guard rails are there. People know you’ve got their back. They’re really important for people to be willing to lean out and take a risk. And in some cases, it just might be a risk to say, I’ve got this kind of crazy idea. I don’t know if it will work. Even you know that risk for some people of speaking out, how do you encourage that? And I think the answer is, you have to keep asking and supporting people, and nothing’s crazy and how you choose to respond, but obviously from the air, you know, it’s okay, so how do you frame it? How do you think about that risk? What risk is there? And you build that out to help make assessments. But I think we know perhaps some of that pretty inherent in the industry. We’re in the rate of change and right at the moment. I mean, you know, we’re in a world where the technology change we’re seeing at the moment, what’s been driven by AI, is certainly the most significant change I’ve seen in my career, absolutely, and it will, you know, have implications for all of us. And so, you know, that creates a lot of uncertainty. And I think we have to also empower people to feel like they can take some level of control or action against what they’re seeing. So that’s another example I think, of you know, yes, you’re taking a risk, because we don’t always know exactly what’s going to happen next, but we’ve still got to be moving forward, and we support you in doing that. And yeah. So again, different environments, you might use different frameworks, and in some cases it might go as far as business cases, but in a lot of cases, I think it still starts with your culture and the support of people who you know, be able to start and think about innovating, taking those you know, risks, even if it starts with just speaking up.

Graeme Cowan  33:19

Yeah, we talked just going on a slightly different thread. We talked briefly yesterday about women in STEM and I mentioned that my wife did electrical engineering at the University of Sydney was, you know, 30 years ago, 35 years ago now, and she was one of six women in a class of 70, and then you shared your son had just completed electrical engineering. It doesn’t seem like there’s been too much progress. And you’ve also, of course, had lots of senior leadership positions in the technology side of things, but there’s a shortage of women in the STEM area. You’ve looked at this, I guess, through the eyes of TAFE and the Department of customer service and IBM and Adobe. What do you think needs to be done to change that? Because you know you were talking before about sensing what was said or not said, and looking at body language. And I think intuitively, women are much better that than men. They tend to be able to read people better. So how can we get more women into those senior areas, in the STEM sector?

Katrina Troughton  34:39

Well, first of all, most, I think it’s been, yeah, I had a career where many times I was the only woman in the room and, or at least a very minority group in the room. And so I suppose I’ve also asked myself a lot one, yeah, but I actually where I’m really optimistic, because I think this is something we’ve looked at. You know, the. It’s not one answer. We’re going to have to continue to encourage people early. We know that. You know, many times girls at school will make their career decisions. They don’t wait. They’re not making them when you’re 12. They’re thinking it’s way earlier. So we have to think about how we influence earlier, and I think that influence has to come from role models, and what we see it has to come from, you know, encouragement through school, counselors, curriculum and other things. It absolutely must come from, you know, the community around so I think the influence that we have to have with parents, with, you know, extended communities that also have massive influence is that is particularly for technology, is the major opportunity that exists for people going into their field. And while we’re seeing significant change, you know, as a as an industry, there is still going to be significant opportunity. It’s got, you know, we have shortages in terms of skills right across. So I think that opportunity to know that you can be successful, that you can, you know, you know, have a very strong career that can be financially rewarding. All those things are messages we need to feed right through. So work with school career counselors. We talked about, New South Wales, has, you know, has absolutely done some work around that with their school career counselors and broadening the aperture of what kind of careers are possible. Obviously, universities, TAFEs, you know, secondary and tertiary education. Being able to have more pathways is really important. And sort of, I think TAFE, New South Wales, and TAFE in particular, with some of the partnerships they’ve done with technology companies, but also with other universities, to create alternative pathways so that, you know, you can come in and you know, either find the first time, but you might not start with technology in Mind and move into that is really important, so creating pathways. And then, you know, the other part is, you know, I’m a, definitely an optimistic person. I look at the opportunity that AI brings, and I actually feel that could be, you know, unleash a whole lot more amazing girls and woman into technology. In part because the things that, in some cases, people think aren’t the exciting part. You know, do I want to be a coder that? You know, people think technology is all about just quoting. They leave this many other careers in technology. But I think what AI does is take away some of those potential barriers. Gives people an opportunity to really think about what I want to do or achieve, and then potentially go make

that happen and start with that outcome and difference you can make versus, I’m not sure I want to sit in front of the screen all day and be a coder and those sort of stereotypes, you know, I think AI is going to change significantly, but when I sit in my Graeme, there was no, no one said, hey, you know what? You could be an entrepreneur. Imagine. No one said, like there were, you know, there are careers today that didn’t exist when I was, you know, first thinking about careers. And now that that vast range many with, you know, technology as a base, I think is part of that change as well. Yeah, I think we’ve got more to go.

Graeme Cowan  38:25

And I think it’s also just being aware that there’s different ways to get to different areas, and just using my wife Cara as an example, as I said, she started off and she qualified as an electrical engineer. She went into biotech at 21 she was sent by a biotech company in Australia to London, and she helped advise people about putting in pacemakers or Rena dairy. And then she was transferred across to Denver with the same company, and worked in biotech until she was about 32 and she made a decision that she really wanted to get into research. And so she was fortunate enough to be able to get her PhD at Oxford and then come back to Australia and so begin the academic path and the so she’d had all this commercial experience, but at that time, probably still a bit. Now, she was told all that experience before was irrelevant. You know, you start, you’re starting all over again. And she was told that a lot and but basically, you know, she because she had good commercial knowledge. She didn’t just rely on the traditional areas for funding. You know, she sought out advising other countries on their cervical cancer plan and strategy, New Zealand, the US, China and and then people started saying, I where’s all this money coming from? So suddenly, you know, people acknowledge that she had skills, very valuable skills, that didn’t come through academia. And so it’s just realizing that there’s many ways to get to the end or get to a goal, and that’s it. You know, there’s that thing about pathways, and if it what an amazing story. By the way, I hope you’re writing that book. She should write.

Katrina Troughton  40:24

It doesn’t sound like she’ll have time, but, but what an amazing story. And that piece of, you know, pathways and where you leverage the skills you’ve built, I think that’s, you know, even more valuable for people now, because I think the skills are changing faster, so quickly, you know, the opportunity and the need to keep learning, to retrain, to leverage skills in different ways. Absolutely, it’s us and and that’s a wonderful, you know, story of of how you can traverse the career. And when you talk to people about different careers they’ve had. I mean that in their case, traversing countries, reversing different, you know, backgrounds in terms of technology, but, but I think often at its core is, you know, the opportunity to learn and to have a way of learning and then thinking about reapplying skills is, you know, a really nice space for everybody.

Graeme Cowan  41:22

I worked in recruitment, career management, career planning for a long time, and I think one of the most valuable things people can do is to know their top five strengths. And that gives you a lens to look at everything you know, the Gallup Clifton Strengths Finder. You know people that use their top five strengths every day. Are six times more likely to be engaged and 300% more likely to report high life satisfaction. And so in this really rapidly changing environment, it gives you great lens to look at a you

know, if I’m going to play apply for this job, will I be able to use these strengths? You know, it’s a great lens to look through.

Katrina Troughton  42:00

And communicate and understand that, because what I see regularly is, I’ve probably had a bit of the same experience, and you see patterns, and you can use those patterns, and you can apply them in different places, and have a, you know, have a really big impact. So I think that ability to, you know, to see that pattern, to understand those strengths, but also then to be able to communicate why it’s relevant in a new field, and leverage it is, you know, the second part of that story, yeah, yeah, and yeah, that’s, I think, would be valuable for many people to think about.

Graeme Cowan  42:38

Yeah, I mentioned yesterday, also Recent research by Wiley, and it literally came out December 2025 so very recent finding that 47% of managers are experiencing severe stress every week. And you know, we just had very brief chat about that. But do you have any thoughts about why that is and what we can do to not make it so severe.

Katrina Troughton  43:07

I think we’re in a time it’s got a lot of uncertainty in almost every everything we think about and are creating stress for other people, whether it be, you know, world affairs, and what we’re seeing, you know, go on in in the world, whether it’s economically. I mean, there’s a lot of, you know, economic stress with people we have that reflected back into business, where there’s been a lot of change in the workforce, whether it be, you know, business related, because there are businesses that have been highly impacted by, you know, global tariffs and other things that they’ve had to adjust to. And, you know, so you’ve seen some very different impacts across workforces. A lot of focus on the economic environment, and, you know, can we get back to top line growth? If not, the focus remains on cost, which traditionally means, how do I have, you know, increased productivity we’re certainly in, you know, no, you know, no surprise whatsoever, that in Australia, where we’ve seen productivity not growing in the workforce, that causes, you know, economic stress. And I think that piece of people feeling like they’re moving forward, and then, as a manager, you then have a team of people, yeah, and many managers. Why they can be very good managers is they want to support their people, and they do care about them, and that creates another set of stress that they take on. So I can certainly see many places, and that’s before you go, you know, well, not before, but the fact that the change we are seeing in business, the change that we are seeing that AI has been driving, is adding to the uncertainty, and uncertainty causes stress, so or for many people, causes stress. Yeah, I think it’s kind of worrying that it’s that high. At 47% but you can see some of the things that might be impacting people at the moment. You think I missed anything?

Graeme Cowan  45:07

I think, well, I often do anonymous surveys when I do keynote presentations and to find out what people’s main stresses are. And always, uncertainty is right near the top, and humans don’t cope with uncertainty at all. I don’t know if you know this, but there’s actual studies that show we would prefer to know that we were going to, for sure, get an electric shock than maybe get electric shock. People are more stressed if they could, rather than they definitely will. So that tells you something about humans,

and I guess the importance to focus on what we can control, the financial stress has, you know, that is a major stressor has risen a huge amount in the last two years. And, yeah, you know, I think there’s more need for, you know, financial well being, financial skills in schools and universities and that in those sort of areas. But yeah, it’s you know thing. Things are just moving so quickly.

Katrina Troughton  46:11

Absolutely. And one of the you know pieces of career advice that I had from my previous CEO at the time was Jenny remedy. She used to say it all the time was got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. It’s actually something that you need to be actively thinking about, particularly as you take on, you know, bigger and bigger roles or different remits. And I’ve reflected on that a lot over a number of years, and that is great advice, because it challenges you to think about this. And that’s the other piece I feel like, when you do spend the time to think about what that is, why am I so uncomfortable standing up in front of a whole lot of people when I’ve had no warning to welcome them to something, then actually, you start to build the Okay, well, what’s the worst thing that could happen? Oh, well, maybe it’s not that bad, and maybe I just do it, and maybe I just practice it more. So you start to build little patterns and paths and things to address it and to help you, you know, think about and put into balance and perspective. What some of that risk really is, because I think it is as you just this unknown versus known that often causes it. And so you’ve got to think about how you can build, you know, your your path to managing that as best you can. You know, there are certainly some days where I say, you know, take a deep breath and say, Well, look, this decision right or wrong is not going to, you know, what’s the worst thing that can happen? Well, I might have to come back and say, Oh, I got it wrong. Okay. Well, if that’s, you know, we know what to watch for. We’re going to see if it hurt. And the worst, you know, that’s the worst outcome. That is not, you know, it’s not threatening life. So put it in perspective and be willing to say, I got it wrong. You know, I think, I think it was say little Roosevelt that said, you know, do something that scares you each day, and that’s where the growth isn’t that. You know, it’s scary, but you know, if you don’t try it, you won’t learn. And I think it’s just encouraging a mindset to persist, learn and grow, yeah, to continue to learn, to continue to be curious, and to continue to learn absolutely and I think sometimes we also get ourselves in a work environment really focused on it has to be about a work skill. I actually think it’s about, you know, a broader skill. It can be, you know, I’m gonna learn, you know, to be a better gardener, just looking out the window, and probably some work to do. But you know, it is that. I mean, I remember spending some time with my kids when I don’t know what they call them here, but we were overseas, and they had rip sticks like the skateboard, but just the two wheels. And they were trying to learn. And I thought, you know, I have to try this myself. And you know, I got there, never as good as them, but at least, you know, it’s like, but it was hard, right? So, you know, it’s all those things, and at the moment, so we’ve just been skiing. I love, love the chance to be with my family. As I’ve said, I’ve got three boys, a husband, so some days it feels like four kids when I’m on a ski field, let me tell you. And yeah, you kind of new terrain, something new, different place. I mean, all all so important, I think, to continuing that. How do you let yourself kind of get comfortable with being uncomfortable, or how do you challenge your boundaries.

Graeme Cowan  49:41

It’s been an absolute pleasure catching up today. Katrina, the time has gone so quickly. I can’t believe it, but I always finish, I guess, by asking the same question, and that is knowing what you know now. What would advice would you give your 20 year old self?

Katrina Troughton  49:55

Oh, that’s such a good question. I think we’ve talked about a couple of things. I probably would say, You got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. I would absolutely say, you know, you know, remain curious and always keep learning. Don’t think you’ve got there as you never will. But I think the biggest other thing we haven’t talked about that, I would say is always start with yes and then work out what would be needed to get there, instead of No, you know, I reflect on times when, you know, which have been really stressful, I’m making big decisions and it’s like, oh, that that’s going to be impossible, that’s too hard. That’s, you know, I almost create the boundary myself, as opposed to it really being there. And if you can change that to okay, if I was going to say yes, what would I need to think about and put in place to make that happen to be successful? To one example I always use, as I was here in Australia, I just had my second son, and I was asked to move back to New Zealand to be their country General Manager. Oh my gosh. What an opportunity. But because head office had always been in Wellington, I went into this mode of, well, I don’t have any family, I don’t have any support. How would we do that? Could I do it? It’s like right down the rat hole of almost a no until I was lucky enough to have a mentor, kind of pulled me back up and said, Yes, but this is something you want. This is something that you think the right answer is yes to. Then what would it take? Which led me to, well, if I could be in Auckland where I do have some family support and other things, I think it could work. And you know, when I went back to the Managing Director and said, Look, I’m so excited by this opportunity, but I think to really be successful, I’d need to be in Auckland, not Wellington, he said, Well, okay, is that going to work for the business? So, you know, weeks of no sleep and lots of stress creating my own No. So my biggest piece of advice would be start with a yes. That’s, you know, wonderful advice for us all to take on board. I really think that is so valuable. Thank you. Thank you very much. Graeme, yeah, thank you for being part of the caring CEO Katrin, I’ve really enjoyed our chat. Thank you very much.

Graeme Cowan  52:26

Thanks for joining us today. We hope you’re inspired to strive for a culture of care that also leads to great results. If you’ve enjoyed this interview today, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform, and don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss an episode. We also welcome any comments. If you’re interested in seeing details about our scalable WeCare \365 mental health training programs, please visit us at WeCARE365.com.au, our goal is to make these programs accessible, practical and ongoing. You can also find me, Graeme Cowan, on LinkedIn, and I’d love to hear from you. And finally, if you’ve come across a senior leader who has impressed you and you think they’d be a great guest, please email us at support at WeCARE365.com.au, thanks. Once again for listening today.

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