#81 The generous leader, Joe Davis, Former Head of Boston Consulting Group, North America

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

• What caring in the workplace means for Joe.
• “THE GENEROUS LEADER: 7 ways of giving of yourself for everybody’s gain” 
• How we and business can be a vehicle for society’s gain. 
• Insights on values-based leadership, transformation at scale, and what it really means to lead with care.

RESOURCES

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Transcript from the interview

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SPEAKERS

Graeme Cowan, Joe Davis

Graeme Cowan  00:02

Our guest today is Joe Davis, who worked for 39 years with Boston Consulting Group and had periods where he was head of BCG North America. In that role, they work really hard on complex problems all over the world, and it’s very interesting to hear how Joe practices self care. What’s important for his self care? He also outlines three questions which every BCG employee answers each week, which helps a leader keep his finger on the pulse, or her finger on the pulse, about how the team is going. He has just released the generous leader, a book that he feels very passionate about. And a generous leader is someone who is driven to offer benefits to others without necessarily thinking of what’s the benefit from me. And he outlines a number of situations where that approach led to the development of the person and the progress in the organization. He also shares the pivotal role a strong mentor played in his career, and what a difference that makes. There’s a lot in this interview with him to really learn from, enjoy.

Graeme Cowan  01:25

It’s a real pleasure to welcome Joe Davis, the formerly Managing Director of Boston Consulting Group North America. Welcome Joe. Thank you Graeme, and welcome or thank you very much.

Joe Davis  01:36

It’s great to be here.

Graeme Cowan  01:39

Joe. What does care in the workplace mean to you?

Joe Davis  01:44

I chat, though, because care is such a big word, it’s such a complex word, workplace, a big thing. I tell you, if you ask me, I think care in the workplace is where you really build an organization or a culture or leaders behave in such a way that they’re helping others to grow and thrive at their full potential. So if you get people really there, you cover a lot of stuff, how they’re feeling their development, et cetera, et cetera. And that’s what I think when I think of a caring leader, they really want to help make sure their people thrive and perform. And just to be really clear, when that happens, usually the organization does pretty damn well, right? So,very much.

Graeme Cowan  02:28

So Joe, you’ve had a long career at BCG, 39 years. I think it was. How did you stay engaged for that period of time? You know? What kept you there when you know it’s quite unusual now for people to stay their entire career with one company?

Joe Davis  02:48

Yeah, well, of course, that’s a big answer too, but I will say a couple of things. One, BCG is a very dynamic, you know, place with incredibly wonderful individuals, and so I just loved the people there that kept me engaged. I had an incredible mentor. I was very lucky. He cared deeply for me. That mentor pushed me pretty hard, but he cared very deeply that made a huge difference. And the other thing is, I just liked the consulting trait, where there’s a variety of different things you do. And I was people might have different I know we don’t want to go down a consulting rabbit hole, but you know, I was one that might be inside working with a client from longer time frame, not just coming up with the answer, but then helping to get it, helping them get it done. If all I had been doing was 12 week studies with an answer after an answer and after answer, I wouldn’t. Have, I wouldn’t have lasted. I enjoyed cool us a little bit more about your mentor, about what they brought to you, and how long did you work with that person for? His name was Steve Gumby, and he, or is Steve gumbee. He’s still around. He and I worked together probably 20 years from my first project at BCG, well, not my first the summer program. He actually got in a car accident. Someone had hit him, a drunk driver. He was in the hospital for four months or something. But then, when I came back after business school, started on a project with him, and we worked other when I went to Australia for two years, we worked side by side all that time. And what did he bring? Well, I mean, he did at the most core. He pushed me hard to be better, but he cared, you know, and and I noticed with him and you it’s kind of cliche, but you hear this too, if all of a sudden, your manager, your mentor or your leaders aren’t pushing you very hard, sometimes it means, ah, they’ve given up on you, right? I mean, no one likes to be beat up. Or beat up is a big word, but you know, so he constantly pushed for me to grow. Now, in the context of that, he gave me great opportunities. You know, whenever he had me working. He pushed me forward. And, you know, levels, then I, you know, performed above the level I might have been assigned at the moment, which was great, but, and he was just there for me. I’ll tell you a quick story. He and I were going to open the Washington, DC office. We were in Boston. Now. He was going to open it. I wasn’t yet a partner, and one day we were applying, well, actually, we’re flying to Toronto to visit a client, and he said to me, he said, Joe, I got to tell you something. And I remember, I remember where we were sitting on the plane and everything. I said, What’s that? He said, Well, I’ve gotten an offer. And by the way, I had already moved to Washington with my children, so I got an offer to be the president of one of our client companies, and I remember, you know, I thought, Oh, crap, or whatever swear word, my family moved to Washington. And I said, Oh, well, that’s great, Steve, because that’s what you’re saying. And he hesitated. He said, No, no, yeah, it is. But I’ve got to tell you, you know, while there’s different puts and takes, you and Sarah have moved, I’ve committed to moving with you. We’re going to make the move. I said, note the offer. Now I talked to him about that 25 years later. He said, Well, Joe, there was more than just you, but that was a big thing. But you know, that was quite inspiring to me. Here’s a guy that had a big opportunity, and partly because of me, he said, No, and my wife and my children, and that’s just, you know that kind of care, and you know, just relationship makes your incredible mentor, and what was some of the other significant advice he gave along the way, you say that it’s not just about care, It’s about also pushing people to reach their potential. What other you saw ideas? I’m almost chuckling, because some of the stories, well, I’ll tell you one story. What you know one time he said to

me, Joe, if I put you this guy, Philip, in a room, four white walls, no windows or doors, and give you real tough problems, Philip, you can’t come out, if not, until you solve it. Philip, probably get out of the room every time, you may not make it out of the room. Okay? Thank you. However, when you get out, and we have the idea now, we have to get it done through the client and everything, Philip will never get it done in a million years, and you’ll get it done every single time, just in the way you collaborate, quite frankly, not only so, but understand where I might fall short, and surround myself with those people. So, you know, you could say that’s pretty harsh feedback, because, my gosh, you’re not smart. But what he was saying to me, and I had it, was, you have your own superpower, as they say today, leverage the hell out of it, and that, you know, I’ve never forgotten that. I’ll tell you a funny one too, and one time, yeah, we’ve all been there. I had so many things all at once, and I just couldn’t get anything done. I practically froze, you know how it is. And I remember he just stopped me, and I just was getting stressed and tense, you know, the whole thing, I don’t maybe that’s third year. BG said, Joe, Stop, just stop. And he said, you know, write down the things you got to get done. Put on the top of this the most important one. Now forget the other seven. Get that done. Now you want to go to multitask. But it was breaking my, you know, I was frozen. And it was very simple advice to break the and then I got along with it. And, you know, I thought that was incredible advice. I’ll tell one more piece of advice, because he’d get mad at me if I didn’t execute on this. You know, I had I could sense if something was wrong. I couldn’t always tell what it might be. Or some say, Joe, you tend to run away when you feel it’s wrong because you don’t want to deal with it, but you have the sensor. You got to run towards it, because, you know, if something’s off, you’re going to solve it eventually, or you’re going to and that, you know, he had to remind me many for a long time, go at it. Go, don’t run from it. But there’s a compliment there too, because he said, you have a nose for the prop that something’s not right, but go digging and so those were doing, I’m sorry. You got more about me than you have wanted, probably. But there’s different examples of, you know, caring deeply for me, helping me understand my own superpower.

Graeme Cowan  09:09

Yeah, so obviously, one of your superpowers is building a sense of connection and belonging with the group. How do you how do you go about that? What do you follow the principles, or it’s just intuitive now?

Joe Davis  09:23

Well, of course it’s intuitive now. But over the I had, you know, I have reflected on what it is. I think there’s a couple of things. I mean, I try very hard, but this took time to learn, then becomes intuitive coupling, you know, just the whole word perspective, taking, you know, understanding where the other is coming from, and blah blah. And you may or may not agree or disagree. I try very hard to think about that. I’m talking to Graeme. He’s from Australia, from, you know, what does that mean? Blah, blah, blah. Or it’s in work environments. This person is in this role. Or. That role, or this color, or that color, whatever it might be. So what, you know, where their background is, such and such, I try very hard on that, and just that’s become intuitive, but I had to be conscious about it. Now, I had to be conscious, for example, well, you know, if you’re going to go into a meeting with people, you know, I’d spend it became pretty rapidly, fired, okay, who’s in here, where are they? What division are they? What might they be bringing? And then the other thing I did to your connection, another which I think people can do, I’m trying to give things that are pretty doable. So if I walked in a room with seven to 10 people, I would, and when I was the senior guy, I would always address the most junior person first and ask them how

they’re doing to get them and, you know, everyone around the room would look like, Oh, my God, the boss, him or her, not to us, you know. And it would send a message, one to that person, they felt more connected, invited in the room, but itself, sent a message of inclusion to everybody. Hey, we’re all collaborating together here. This isn’t a hierarchy. The last thing I did is I but I learned this over time too, is, you know, one, shut up and listen, and two, ask questions. You can go whichever way you want first, and the shutting up and listening took some time. I think sometimes you will struggle with that, don’t we, yeah, even now you struggle right?

Graeme Cowan  11:24

Definitely, BCG has often been really rated as the top consulting group to work with, and I think it won the last four awards for that. What do you think is the secret sauce to that, why? Why do people really enjoy working with BCG?

Joe Davis  11:48

Well, I think, I think, you know, I guess I’ll say, probably, because it’s a incredible learning culture. And now, now, you know, there’s a lot of reasons. It’s one of the top firms, so you feel good being there. You’re working with clients on pretty cool questions. Remember my coolest project was ever part of was before Obama, should they bail out General Motors or not? That team worked all the time, but that was the coolest question they would have tell the president united states. So the work is typically quite good. You know, the pay is great, and all that stuff. But the thing, and then the people, as I already said, are wonderful, but I think the thing that really makes and then, you know, you’re just constantly growing and developing. Sometimes, as I said, you could be painful the people, but it’s always feel like you’re just learning, learning, learning, and then we do, and you and I chatted about this before we do try to put mechanisms in place to ensure it’s as supportive as possible in a high, high work hour company, high work day company, it’s actually quite, you know, someone said, Hey, I am, you know, my kids sick, I gotta go home. No one would say, don’t go home. It just wouldn’t happen. Now, for the most critical me in the world, you might say, gosh, do you think your husband or wife could do it or, you know, but otherwise, but if it’s down, if, no, no, I have to walk out. You walk out. I mean, I’ll tell you a story one time as a project leader. So three years in, and I count, I think I’d worked 29 days in a row, and this was pre computer, so I was in an office or at the client, not just at home, that’s a lot of days in a row. And I was getting burned out, and this mentor of mine, who’s on Monday morning, was pounding on me about some analysis and just from Paul, and I couldn’t take it. And I remember, I literally broke down, started crying, got up and said, I’m leaving. I’ll see you in two or three days. Where are you going? What are you doing? I said, I can’t take anymore. Well, he didn’t fire me. He didn’t think anything less, you know, he gave me the two days. He might have been frustrated, I don’t know. He didn’t say anything. And then I came back, fired up. And so that kind of, you know, kind of epitomizes, you know, how a lot of the culture is. It’s not perfect. Not everybody’s that way. Graeme, we don’t go to BCG, but

Graeme Cowan  14:11

We mentioned, while we were talking earlier that each week, I think it’s each Friday, everyone answers three questions. What are those three questions?

Joe Davis  14:23

Well, they’ve evolved over time. But it’s, you know, it’s basically, how are you feeling about the work? Very and you you you have a happy face, very happy face, sort of happy face. So it’s very simple, how’s the team feeling about to work, which gets quite interesting. You might be feeling great, but you think the team’s feeling bad, or you’re feeling bad, you know. And then do you feel like you’re adding value this week? You know? Are you doing something value which is important? Because, you know, you can get stuck in rabbit holes of analysis, which someone doesn’t feel very good about. But those are the three. A team lead sees them anonymously, although we also will have a coach. That can read them, not anonymously, if they need to help. Some, you know, teams love coaches that are separate from the project itself, who can help give feedback to leadership on you know, if everybody is saying, you know, an unhappy face kind of thing.

Graeme Cowan  15:16

When it shows that the team is in a great shape. What do you do? What does leader do?

Joe Davis  15:25

Well, coupled with that, data is a converse is usually depends on how the team structures a conversation on a Monday or a Tuesday as a team. So first off, they are confronted with it, and if it’s with there’s many there’s multiple levers. The leader, you may be that the person, day to day, Project Leader, doesn’t know what to do, but you know the partner on the project. If that’s the case, they get crap to be blind. They get crap also like, hey, person, what the hell’s going on with your team? So they’ll might swoop in and try to figure out what’s going on. That’s really, we call it a red zone. If it’s really bad scores, a coach will swoop in. They’ll inform management name, like the office leads, and then it just, you know, what do you do? I mean, it’s pretty standard stuff. What is it that’s underpinning this? Why is it this way? Is it the way that project lead is leading the work? Is that the client’s expectations are just really, you know, excessive right now, you know, we already doing work that’s on the scope. A lot of it depends. So the main thing you do is acknowledge it, publicize it inside the leadership, and then find to try to figure out the source just there’s too much work for the team size and, you know, Gage, you’ll add another person BCGs cost to get the work done. Sometimes members are underperforming. You know, you can’t solve that near term, but you solve it over time. Yeah, is there a consistent reason often why teams aren’t working well, or does it vary hugely? No, no. I think the most consistent reason is, least my experience over the years would be workload and scope. The scope of the project is just bigger than the team is there to get it done in a normal work week, which, let’s say, 60 hours to be offensive and and, and then often that is led by a demand. Leadership of the project, afraid to tell the client, no, you know, you can’t have that question on you’re paying for this, not that you want to pay for that without a person. Because, of course, your client service business you want to deliver. That’s the most common. Some of my colleagues wouldn’t agree with me, but I asked, the most common thing is the scope just gets out of line with the team. And, you know, maybe this is better with AI and then some, yeah, well, that’s it. And some leaders are really good to figure out, what analysis do we need to do? What do we not need to do? Those that are not so good at that their teams are doing analysis into the dustbin, you know? But it’s still workload. Workload.

Graeme Cowan  18:05

It’s often stated that psychological safety is a real key to great teams. How do you go about promoting that environment where people felt they can be their authentic self, where people thought they could contribute ideas we heard and then also challenge ideas. And so don’t agree with that,

Joe Davis  18:27

yeah, well, when you say you I can’t speak for I mean, organizations. It’s just the organizations. Let’s just, you know, I both know it’s culture for me. You know, in that context, I actually go back to what I said. I’m just a big, big beliefs, believer in this whole idea of generous listening. And, you know, every executive I talk to relate to my book is the best of all of them. Ask questions. Ask questions. Ask questions. I mean, first off, if you ask questions to people, it shows respect. You know it’s not and and, of course, you might be learning you probably are learning something, if nothing else, you’re learning where everybody else is, but you can learn some information you don’t know. And when you actually listen, then you really are showing respect, you know, and engaging them in the organization. I think that’s the most and then also the point I said earlier, this whole perspective, taking, you know, you know, ask questions to try to understand where are they coming from. I remember during covid, I was thinking about what to do for the you know, I would 30 years of BCG, and there’s that time, and I was running North America, if you can believe it, 70% of North America is under 29 years old. So what did I out of 29 I had kids that age, but one of my colleagues said, Joe, you’re trying to make decisions on, you know, do you give him a monitor at home and this and that? You don’t know what the hell they’re going through. You’ve got to get a phone or zoom. And I remember, it’s very interesting. One day, I got on with the person, he was in his bedroom, in a bed, and I thought, What are you doing the bedroom, your bed? Here I am with a seven bedroom house, you know, because I. Whatever. 30 years of these two you say, Well, Joe, we have, you know, a bedroom, a living room, which is a dining room, and a little kitchenette. And one week, my wife gets the dining room table on the couch, and I get the bed, and then we switch, and she gets the I said, Oh my god, yeah, this is now. I used to go around from room to room to pretend I was traveling, because I like to travel. So that was quite eye opening to me, which is all about, you know, spending the time to listen, understand what coming people are coming from, and ask questions. Think that’s, I mean, you can, we can probably go on and on. It’s like the site, the way you said, psycho safety, but people feel engaged now new, sorry. I mean, of course you could have bosses that shut people up. I mean, there’s bad people like, you know, we’re not that’s a different question. Yeah, definitely, definitely.

Graeme Cowan  20:50

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Graeme Cowan  21:24

You’ve just about last year, released a book The generous leader. Why did you decide to write that? And what’s the main premise of the book?

Joe Davis  21:39

Well, that’s kind of a lot of the stuff you believe right about you. But I decided to write it because I thought, you know, after coming out of covid and leading through that time, and seeing how the value of being connected with people and inspired and motivated and really it just all came together, then I wanted to add my voice to manys on what I think good leadership is, and not just management, you know, that’s one thing, and a lot of books on management, but actually leadership, and leading inspiring, helping people move forward. To me, when I what it is to me is really, I mean, the premise is that the best leaders who get the best outcomes, it’s not about being nice, it’s still about getting outcomes actually are, I use the word generously, but those who give of themselves freely, without expectation direct personal benefit, so others grow, develop and thrive at their full potential, you know. And the minute someone thinks you’re doing that for you, it gets a little flaky. They don’t really, but if you’re really ensuring people are thriving, you’re going to win too, you know, just because the organization’s going to perform blah, blah, blah. I was talking to Joaquin duato, as the CEO of J and J, and Joaquin said to me, Joe, I said, you know, Joe, we can never forget outcomes matter. You know, if you aren’t delivering results as a leader, you’re gonna be out of job. However, the sooner you learn to move past yourself and unlock all the great human capabilities and traits of those with whom you’re teaming, the sooner you’ll get to the best possible outcomes. So he and I’m just same kind of point, so that’s what I pushed on. Leadership is really the leader ensuring others, which, you know, it’s looking to think great leaders care, which, at some level, it takes caring. I mean, I say in the introduction, if you really don’t give a damn about your teams and that you’re not gonna read you’re not gonna read my book anyway. But you know, just like now, I hope more and more leaders, you know, do care to some degree, we could. I don’t know if you want me to stop here, but I actually believe now, with the way the world’s changed, you know, we need to bring our human self to work. Our our teams expect to see a human there at work, and they need to bring some of the humanity to work. And that started with the BlackBerry with all sudden, 24/7 you know, through the southwest, covid just blurring everything you know, work life is blue, so you can, know, you know, the nine to five cog in the wheel. There are probably some jobs, but most jobs aren’t that way. You know, yeah.

Graeme Cowan  24:09

You’ve worked with a lot of, you know, CEOs hitting government departments, that sort of thing. Can you think of a leader that just really lived, that you know, someone that you work with that exemplified what you what you wrote about?

Joe Davis  24:25

Yeah, well, I’ll give one example, Arnie Sorenson, who was the CEO of Marriott. And he was, was a wonderful human being. Was a very good leader. He was driven to drive his company, but he cared deeply. And the epitome of it can be one time he could see the video when covid hit. He was also being treated for and unfortunately dying of cancer, but he did a video for the organization just about where we were at this time. And he was humble. He was vulnerable. He’s human. Bald head. This time and talked about, you know, we don’t know when people are back in our hotels. We’re all going to team the best we can. I have to furlough some of you. You know, it’s honest. It was direct, and it was we’re all in it together, and I don’t have all the answers, but trust me, I’ll do my best. We’re really epitomized in trying to understand where they’re coming from, trying to connect with them, sharing his vulnerable self. But another example of someone I thought was quite, I think quite good, is this Scott Kirby, CEO of United. And he told me a couple stories. Well, two things. One, he said, during covid, he was going to

talk to his team, it’s the old company, and say, Hey, I don’t, I’m not sure we’ll be flying again. But and as you know, as some of his managers, well, you can’t say that you’re the CEO. You have to know the answer. Now that one’s obvious. No one knew when they were going to fly again, so it’s kind of safe, but even the uncertainty and the vulnerability, they didn’t like. He said, Well, guys wouldn’t even lie to my entire corporation. They know. I don’t know. And then he also epitomized something I thought was incredible, and I one of the things I argue you can do as a leader is, you know, Cap grab generous moments where small acts have a big impact. You know, congratulate somebody a job well done, and send email patient person, happy birthday. And after the George Floyd murder in my country, well, he told me the story. Said his wife was on a plane when they were flying again, and the captain came out said, Oh, Mrs. Kirby, great to see you. I love your husband as our leader. Blah, blah, blah. She goes, Oh, why? It was a black female captain. And she goes, Well, when the George Floyd murder happened, he just called each one of us and just checked in. Didn’t tell us, didn’t say, you know, didn’t tell us what to do. I really just wanted to check in and let him know, let us know, the United was there with us, you see, now, so it’s simple act, you know, now he had to make calls. But nope, no agenda other than checking in. So those people that just epitomize so many of the traits I think, of an incredible leader.

Graeme Cowan  26:58

Yeah, I interviewed about six weeks ago, a lady called David Barnett. He was the CEO of Pearson in APAC, and when he heard and he asked to be made aware of it, when someone you know was having a hard time, you know, a sick parent, death kid, struggling, he made a point of calling them and just like you talked about checking in, yeah, people remember that, didn’t they? Oh, they’ll remember that the rest of their lives.

Graeme Cowan  27:29

You know, it’s so well. Two funny stories, just a very simple one, one of my colleague of mine, junior to me, she was telling me a story about, you know, if she will tell her manager on a Friday, hey, I have a big weekend. My kids in a soccer tournament, so something as silly as that, you know. And then if on Monday or Tuesday, the managers, hey, by the way, how was your kid’s soccer tournament? She said, off, you know, teeny little act. I had to remember,

Joe Davis  27:54

took a minute or two. So it didn’t people say, Oh, it takes too much time. Minute or two, she goes, I’ll follow that person anywhere they took the time. That’s a small, simple one. I think what you said is just so important. I mean, I’m a big believer in assuming you use email in your company, sending an email congratulate someone for a job well done, and copying the right either copy your boss or copy the team. I was once talking to a woman about this, and she goes, Oh yeah, my daughter got an email today like that, and she goes last night at the dinner table. We dissected every word. We were all so proud. No, not not the promotion, not the salary increase, but the email that about the job she did and she could show her parents so proud. And those take no work, no work. Like your story, you know? I mean, it takes a little work, but not really.

Graeme Cowan  28:43

In your book and other things I’ve read about you, you’ve talked about the importance of leaders being vulnerable. Why do you think that’s so important?

Joe Davis  28:54

Well, let’s use two words. Let’s use authenticity and vulnerability. Let’s use bulk. But I do so vulnerable. I think couple things I one, it goes back to, I think now people are looking for a human to be engaging with, you know, not just and I actually think I remember one of the BCG meetings we had, you know, the fancy AI stuff, there was a hologram of the CEO on the stage. Leads somewhere else. So, God, not even is it not just not human. It’s now not even him. You know, that was cool. It’s nice technology, but it’s talking about just from humanity. It was his voice and it was live, but it wasn’t him. So I think one the people are expecting that human side from you. But then on the vulnerability, you know, if you can describe show simple vulnerability. You when others get stuck and get afraid and don’t want to admit that they’re now can’t figure out what to do. You know, everything just freezes. They freeze. The progress freezes. And if you can release them from that by saying, Hey, it’s okay to show you don’t know what to do, or ask, help me not can I tell two. Quick stories. One was my mentor. One time I didn’t know how to do some math thing, and I walked down the hall to Steve. It says, Steve, I don’t know how to do this. It was funny. He was senior partner. Time he could have easily kicked me out and said, Hey, come back. I’m busy. He said, Oh, I don’t know how to do it either. Let’s walk down and ask Philip how the same guy was so smart. How incredible is that? Instead of admitting, you know, he could have, he admitted to this other Junior guy. It’s a huge message to me, and as a fairies, it’s not like he cried or another very powerful vulnerability story, a friend of mine said that he hated to let to have his team think he didn’t know the answer. So if he was in the room and they were working, he could see they were stuck, and they might turn to him and he didn’t know the answer, he would leave the room before he’d get confronted. Now, you know, yeah, that’s not very productive. And he said, one time I stayed and said, Oh, you know they asked you. So you know everybody, I don’t know either. And he was stunned. He said, there’s like this release it, oh, you don’t know. Oh, the boss doesn’t know. We don’t so all sudden, the energy related, oh, well, let’s solve it together. Let’s ask questions. Let’s engage. Let’s brainstorm. And, oh, he thought he was going to admit weakness. All he did is enabled them to move past their fear of weakness. You know, I think now if you really can also show a lot of emotion. You know, it allows you to connect with people. And I’m not asking you. You know, everyone’s got to step over their line. I’m a crier, so it doesn’t bother me. Well, a friend of mine said, Joe, when you’re the white male, 60 plus year old leader, you can cry and cares waving it to pop out by your stage of life. You can get away with crying if you want, however you know, showing that human side inspires others and motivates others, or, at a minimum, showing that you don’t know and that you’re vulnerable allows them to move past their own roadblocks, which is quite important in business.

Graeme Cowan  31:54

Yeah, I love the story of Satya Nadella and his turning around of Microsoft. And one of the big things was embracing a growth mindset, but, but going from a know it all company to a learner Tool Company, you know, just just saying that this is our future, you know, it’s absolutely critical to our success. And you know, the turnaround he’s achieved is remarkable, you know, just really tapping into purpose, inviting people to solve problems. They’re passionate about using Microsoft technology. And you know, again, that’s a wonderful example of a generous leader, isn’t it? Just thinking beyond people, delivering results for the company, but helping them to solve problems that were personal to them.

Joe Davis  32:48

sorry, go on, yeah, no, no. It’s, yeah, it’s, it’s wonderful story. It’s an incredible story, because he also, you know, if you remember, Microsoft was highly hierarchical, you know, the two previous guys, bomber, I think, had reputation, will let it. And Bill Gates was just smarter, but it’s still his play, you know. So didn’t admit mistakes. You didn’t go across. You know, cross division is all the things broken. Well, someone once asked me, actually asked me so, well, you know, you have this generous leader stuff, but tell me about the tech guys. I suppose I’m not going to comment on those guys. And some of them just are geniuses that created a product, but not everyone wants to work at their companies, but such as a tech example, where he had a giant thing that was a mess, and his attitude of being that type of leader, as you said, I think everybody credits that with a lot of the unlock from Microsoft. Of course. Yeah, he’s still a tough guy, though, I think, I think he’s still he expects greatness. He expects performance. You don’t want to remember you and I both don’t want people thinking is, oh, it’s all about being nice.

Graeme Cowan  33:51

Results, the results achieved at Microsoft to be in

Joe Davis  33:55

Well, that’s what happens when you get people inspiring results come right? Yeah, yeah, you have obviously lived a very, very busy work life. I know you’ve used flying up land on it.

Graeme Cowan  34:08

But how do you practice self care? How do you take care of yourself? You mentioned one extreme example where you worked 29 days straight and then two off it. How do you reach your own tank?

Joe Davis  34:21

Well, I mean, I’m in a different stage in life now, but what did I do over the years? First off, I loved to run, or love to run, and I did not let that compromise. I mean, when I had four children, I’d be gone for four days a week. I gave up golf because I only had two days of my kids, but I didn’t give up running. So that was very important to me, to my mental health. And I think the poor part there is whatever that is for you, you can’t let that be compromised, because that’s and then I had, you know, I was thinking about the someone else i Little Things I just think during the work days, you know, I always went outside at least once a day. Now maybe for. Using them. But, you know, and I always say, Oh, can I get your lunch? No, I’m gonna go out and get my own lunch so I can pick it up. No, because I wanted to get out, I’d get up and go get a coffee. I mean, there’s stupid little things, but actually they were my version of the fresh air. You know, it’s shocking the day,

Joe Davis  35:14

so that. And then, as I said, you I think if I knew it was getting way overwhelming, I I would step, step away. I mean, yeah, the world ain’t gonna stop just because one person steps away for a little while. Yeah? I think for me with running, that was my, that was my, you know, my mental release, yeah, well, I refer to that as your, your one thing. Yeah, you one thing.

Graeme Cowan  35:38

You’re really present and it makes other things easier afterwards. And my one thing is meditation, but then it usually followed by exercise of some sort. So, yeah, you know, that’s very much what I advocate in my workshops and presentations. Know, you one thing, but do it, that’s enough to know,

Joe Davis  36:00

Oh, it’s the do it you can’t because right, migrate through it. I mean, is everything big make just make it a habit, and it’s no big deal.

Graeme Cowan  36:10

You and I are old enough to had started work before. They were confused and and, you know, we were told back then by futurists that we’re going to have to cope with all this extra time, more leisure, way more leisure because of computers. What went wrong?

Joe Davis  36:29

More data, more data, more No, that’s really, I remember that, or you won’t need paper, but now there’s more paper, or the same maybe paper finally diminishing a bit. I don’t I mean, I think, well, that’s an interesting question. I mean, I think, depending on what type of economy you’re in, a kind of business, I mean, we always want to achieve more and more and more, right? Most people would achieve more and more and more. And so the fact that you have more time, you can put it into other things to achieve more, the fact that there’s more data you could spend more time to study, to analyze. The fact that you can go more global, more markets open up. So I mean, if you want to get philosophical, I think the more and more and more is what happened, as opposed to maybe some of the Scandinavian countries, which claim they’re the healthiest and all that in the world. And some of my colleagues do seem to leave, they deliver. They work hard, but they seem to lead a little more balanced life than Americans. Yeah, it’s interesting. That’s my friend. But I don’t know what is what is your sense of that? Ah, well, this is interesting. Germany is another example as well, where, you know, they’re a very successful economy, good productivity. Then they have six weeks holiday. Right from the start, you know, they have lots and lots of time off. Yeah, I think there is something about just masses and masses of data, masses of staff, massive and, you know, being able to sort the wheat from the chaff, I think, is a very, very important skill now, and and because it’s so it’s so easy to be busy, but are you truly being effective? Well, no, that’s kind of funny, because even you’re right, just little things. I mean, now that I’m not in business, I don’t answer 10 million emails a day, but you know, you could, you know, we could get to the point of spending two hours a day just answering mundane or deleting mundane emails, so the data in the computer just created more work is completely useless, but you feel productive. So we can dissect this pretty critically and come up with a lot of bad outcomes.

Graeme Cowan  38:34

Definitely. The other thing you know, we’re at an incredibly important era in the workplace, with this massive influx of AI and implications of it, and so far, there doesn’t seem to have been a big productivity list lift yet. So why hasn’t there been a productivity lift? And I don’t think there’s any doubt that it will eventually really revolutionize how work is done. So what advice would you give to CEOs now or senior leaders about embracing the benefits of AI without it overwhelming them?

Joe Davis  39:17

Yeah, well, and I, you know, could talk to my BCG colleagues are deep in the world there right now. But I do think the anytime I’ve seen over the years in my consulting career, just in business, new technologies come, a lot of people jump onto the stuff, grab it and do all that, and they don’t know what they’re doing it for. What is this thing supposed to do for me? You know? What is the outcome I expect? What is the business result I expect. And that’s the same advice. Now, you know, man, I think things are calming down a little bit, but when it first started hitting everybody, oh, I got to get AI, got to get, boom, and get these machines together, and they just didn’t know what they’re well, I’ll be fair, didn’t No one knew what they’re doing, because it’s new. But you know, what do you want to do? Oh, I want to stream all. Find my call center. Okay, get idea and make the get the call center stream. But what do you want? Do you want fewer people there? Or do you want faster answers for the customers, or do you want better answers? Even then, what do you want from it? That’s, I think, my number one piece of advice with this technology of same is, what do you really think it’s going to do for you? And if you need to experiment, fine, but then call them experiments, you know, don’t say I’m now adopting, yeah, that’s that would be my biggest piece of advice. Because, yeah, I love that, love that concept of experiments, because no one has the complete answers, and sometimes you just have to try. And, you know, even if people like, don’t pretend, like forming the whole company to an AI to AI tools experiment, to where it makes sense to transform it, you know, that’s, I think, the mistake that people might make the island’s just like, you know, well, I’ll tell you. Remember, we did some work with Starbucks on putting in the, well, the we did all the mobile ordering, that whole thing. And essentially, I talked to the guy after, the person that did a lot of the work, not the technology part, but ran the project. He said, Well, the funny thing, Joe is, it wasn’t so hard to create technology and to get them, but then the whole Starbucks marketing team had to change, because they were used to marketing in the stores. Now it was this thing, and that’s not the way they were structured. So changing the behaviors, and not the people, but the behaviors and the way they worked, was the real challenge, not the computer. I mean, when people type the stuff into the create the mobile app, but that was so I think that’s, you know, people get ahead of ourselves with technology is going to give us some value, but you’re not sure the value you’re trying to get out of it, and you haven’t organized it orcompany to get that value.

Graeme Cowan  41:49

Yeah, it’s been an absolute pleasure catching up. Joe. I always finish by asking the question that, know what you know now? What advice would you give your 20 year old self?

Joe Davis  42:03

Yeah, my number one advice for myself is, earlier, really slow down. Not slow down, but slow down and listen when someone else was asking or telling you something, then ask questions and respond. I mean, I was terrible, very quick. I was, I’m very quick. Oh, I see where you’re going with your question, and I cut you off and start to answer. Well, I may not know what you know, maybe I was right 60% of the time the other 40 I was just rude. And, you know, and I’m wrong, but there’s a general counsel. BCG, I had a habit of cutting her off. One time I was cut her off, she goes, Joe, Would you just shut up and laugh? This is maybe 10 years ago, so it took me a while learning this holy shit, but I’ve never forgotten it. Let the person finish, then engage. And even if you know where they’re going and you are right, show the respect to let them make their point. And if you have to be wrong, then now you have the you know, you know you’re gonna be you’re going the right direction. That’s the biggest thing. Ask

questions and really listen. You know, I just used to be always in a hurry or thought I knew it all. And that very much applies to our personal life as well, doesn’t it? Listen, you want to have a better marriage. I’d recommend that same concept. Maybe engage with you at certain ages. I’d recommend the same concept

Graeme Cowan  43:24

Absolutely. Thanks for being part of the caring CEO Joe. I’ve really enjoyed our chat.

Joe Davis  43:30

Thank you. It’s been really great.

Graeme Cowan  43:32

Thanks for joining us today. We hope you’re inspired to strive for a culture of care that also leads to great results. If you’ve enjoyed this interview today, please rate us on your favorite podcast platform, and don’t forget to subscribe so that you don’t miss an episode. We also welcome any comments if you’re interested in seeing details about our scalable WeCare365 Mental Health Training programs, please visit us at wecare365.com.au. Our goal is to make these programs accessible, practical and ongoing. You can also find me, Graeme Cowan, on LinkedIn, and I’d love to hear from you. And finally, if you’ve come across a senior leader who has impressed you and you think that’d be a great guess, please email us at support, at wecare365.com.au. Thanks once again for listening today.

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