#72 From mail boy to caring CEO, Damien Mu, CEO, AIA Australia

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

• What caring in the workplace means for Damien
• Journey of resilience and determination
• Leadership that’s deeply rooted in purpose and care
• Sustainable leadership and success

RESOURCES

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Transcript from the interview

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SPEAKERS

Graeme Cowan, Damien Mu

Graeme Cowan  01:00

It’s a real pleasure to have Damien. You, CEO of AIA insurance, on the caring CEO, welcome Damien, hi, Graeme, great to see you and great to be here. Thank you for having me. David. What does care in the workplace mean to you?

Damien Mu  01:32

Great question, Graeme, and care for me in the workplace has probably evolved a little bit, and I’ll share what I mean by that. Firstly, you know, care from the workplace is really important to us as a purpose led organization, because we do ensure over 3 million Australians and and, and so as a organization, as a place of work, our whole business is about making sure we’re caring for our customers. And so that’s really important. But then I think the question is, really in the workplace, how are we caring for our teams, who are the ones caring for our customers, and for me, that care is actually about three things. One, it’s about being having a supportive environment. Two, it’s about having an accepting environment. But and the third one really is about making it a safe place. So support and support, absolutely. But the the the making it a place where people feel safe to be them is really important. And what it’s changed me Graeme, is I thought care was actually originally about, you know, I guess we were over and zealous in wanting to help people, by thinking it was about solving problems for people. And that’s the change for me. It’s there to be supportive. It’s there to accept people for who they are, and it’s there to create a safe place. It isn’t it. Uh, always, or in most cases, about solving people’s issues. Yeah, that’s a bit different. Yeah, yeah.

Graeme Cowan  05:08

It’s interesting. One of our previous interviews bob chapman, he’s from the US, and he wrote a book called everybody matters. And yes, he’s basically built a business from $20 million up to $3 billion very successful. And he said something very similar to you. He basically said that first he thought, to show you care, he had to do this, do that, try things, but he ended up concluding that caring is listening with empathy. And I really love that, because it helps people feel safe. It helps people feel heard, doesn’t it? 

Damien Mu  05:40

Yeah, yeah. And that’s, that’s where the care is. I mean, you know, I think, by human nature, we want to, we think helping is by solving the problem for people, and in many instances, well, that’s a really wonderful intent. It’s, it’s, it sometimes can be quite dangerous, right? And I don’t mean dangerous, probably provocative word, but it is, you know, like to think that we can solve people’s problems, is taking on a responsibility that we may be over overreaching and overstepping and really care is just about, yeah, as Bob said, this is about people feeling heard, and that’s what I mean and supported, is what I said and and that you know you accept it and that they can ask for help. It’s a safe place if they need it.

Graeme Cowan  06:27

I think it’s quite easy to understand how that applies in a one on one meeting. But how about with your leadership team? How? How do you help make it safe for people to contribute? How do you bring out what introverts might be thinking?

Damien Mu  06:42

Yeah, again. Graeme, I think so many things look I’ve been in the CA role for now, for over 11 years, and it’s changing all the time, right? So we’re, you know, the world and business and the way you do things change. And you know what? One of the recent things that I’ve implemented is called our data, conversations, data D, A, D, A, and we have what we call weekly exco accelerator meetings, which are data conversation. So we purposefully, yeah, because you to do it, you sort of like, it’s great to talk about it, but then you need the practice to substantiate it, or rituals we’ve talked about before that helps people to understand and put it, apply it, right? So we talk about, hey, let’s everyone have their voice, and let’s have a chat. But then, in practice, how does that work? So you have to be deliberate about it. And the data conversation really is about saying, you know, we embrace diversity, and by virtue of diversity, that means we all think differently. We all have come with different experiences and and we value that. So it’s not about agreement, it’s about accepting that, you know, we all have a diverse view that we want to bring to the table, and that’s why we’re here. And the A is about then accepting that it’s what we want, is an active listening. So what you described before listening is so important, and that’s how you create that environment, through practice right to be able to say that people feel like they’ve been listened to. So we embrace it and accept it to people diverse. So let’s have this diverse conversation where everyone can have a very active listening and say their piece. But then we do agree that, if we’ve all had that, can we deliberately go around the room and feel safe to do that? Because we’re having a data conversation, there is a decision, because business has to move on. And we all align behind that.

Graeme Cowan  08:35

I love that. I love that. And, yeah, sorry, go on.

Damien Mu  08:39

No, I think, you know, we, you know, like people talk about diversity and how important it is, but it’s only diversity to get the richness of it is about really accepting and listening to the different opinions and the different thoughts and the different ideas that come from that, and being able to do that in a way that doesn’t mean We’re all going to agree. In fact, it’s even it’s very difficult now to get agreement, because we are embracing that diversity, right? So we think differently. We are different. So it’s really about creating a place where people can safely Express or feel like they can express their views, but more so than expressing their views, that they feel heard and then understand that, you know, a decision has to be made, and we align behind it, but we’ve set our pace.

Graeme Cowan  09:24

Very much so. And I love the the billionaire Ray Dalio hedge fund manager, and he’s got a TED talk, which is called how to have a culture where the best ideas win. And I love that principle, and it’s not democracy, but you know, you form behind what’s the best option, and often it evolves, doesn’t it? As you go around a room, people add a bit more. And it’s important in that stage that we say and this rather than but we can’t do this because it often does then really. Build on the idea, doesn’t it?

Damien Mu  10:01

Yeah, absolutely. And look, and Kevin Roberts is someone who I work with closely, who sort of introduced the data concept, and we talked about that, and it was really interesting to think about that, right? Like, it’s like, you know, we, we don’t often, we sort of stop at the initial part, which is, oh, that, you know, diversity is great, but what does that actually mean, and how do we make it successful? Yeah, successful? Yeah, below the levels of, you know, layers to to really get the benefit of it, yeah. But I think, you know, it is, it is no longer. I mean, it hasn’t been some time, but, I mean, I think absolutely it should be about the best ideas winning, because we’re all on the same team, you know. And I have what I, you know, sort of a formula that I work with the team on, because it’s great to talk about things, but some people need to be able to see it and touch it. And, you know, how do we get to peak performance? And that really is about making sure that we’re absolutely all aligned around a common purpose. Yeah, it then means getting the people, you know, the right people, who are aligned to that purpose and have the skills. But then the heart, the hard part comes in. The next part is really, what are the practices that we have? Yeah, right, because you could have a great purpose awesome people, but if the practices in the organization don’t allow people to get the job done or to deliver on that purpose. You actually can go, you know, disengage people. You can actually have a very non productive environment. And then once you notice that, you know, you’ve got, once it builds, it builds on each other, because the purpose inspires and motivates us and gives us a why the people are the right people who’ve got the connection to that purpose, the skills and capabilities. And then when we can have an organization that has to your point, you know, like those practices that we talked about that enable that people can get things done. And then from that comes the most important part, positivity, absolutely and and that safe environment gets created.

Graeme Cowan  12:01

I had a coffee last week with a CEO of a consumer packaged goods company, and he observed that lots of people don’t want to give the CEO the bad news, and he said that I always have to think what isn’t being said, you know, what’s what’s missing. Do you feel that at all? Or you, your people have no problems at all challenging you and giving you all the all the tough things

Damien Mu  12:31

look I think I would hope it’s after being quite deliberate again, because I think, you know, you’ve got to get the right practices in place, and it comes from not the words, but the actions that allow people then then to know that there’s congruency there, and that’s the case. So look, I feel in many instances, people can feel very comfortable, comfortable, hopefully, but, um, but what I have had to be really open about with them and be declare my expectation in a way, and I don’t like to say that word expectation, but to help facilitate that is, it’s not because they want to hide things or they’re scared. They want to. They want to please sometimes see and get it right. And I keep telling don’t engage me at the end, and I don’t need perfection at all. In fact, I invite them to please iterate with me. That’s what I enjoy. Please show me the drafts, and let’s co create together. Whereas what I found was it wasn’t because they were not afraid to give me bad news. They just really wanted to do such a great job to show me they were, you know, able to do it, capable and whatever. And there was this mismatch, because I’m like, Well, if you give it to me the last minute, how it doesn’t give me time to dinner. Number likes to co create, integrate and share thoughts. And so it was being very deliberate about that that has enabled people to feel like, Oh, great. The expectation is, and he’s going to be looking over with a rule, or is this there’s one plus one equal to this is the i dotted, because it’s not a finished product, and they feel comfortable with that. But you give could, you know absolutely, then be mindful that when I’m in those meetings and I’ve got the early editions, that I’m not being critical about those bits. And we really sort of principle so it is, it does, is about the way in which you then act out. And because if I was to just sort of go, what’s all these errors on there, then people are going to just retreat to the don’t share anything till it’s 100% perfect in their mind. Yeah,

Graeme Cowan  14:38

yeah. Even Jeff Bezos talks about the 70% rule, just getting 70% there, then make a call. If it’s wrong, we’ll change it again, but best to iterate and go forward. So yeah, and it’s very much the situation now, isn’t it, where no one can have all the information. Things are just changing. Quickly. It’s impossible for one person to be all over it. Well,

Damien Mu  15:03

I mean, I yeah, I would like to talk to leaders or CEOs and executives who think, you know, they make decisions based on 100% you know, information foolproofness. I think we waste, I think Jeff’s insight, there is one that many executives or says would align to, which is, you know, if we’re waiting for the 100% where we’re sort of deluding ourselves a little bit. And secondly, the time lost between the 70 and the 100 or the 80 and the 100 is, is too valuable time is on.

Graeme Cowan  15:45

Damien, you’re of Sri Lankan descent. Why’d you tell your listeners how you ended up in Australia?

Damien Mu  15:52

Yeah. Thanks, Graeme. Well, proud story for me. I’m proud to be born and bred at nozzy, but I do have a Sri Lankan background, and also half quarter Chinese quarter Burmese. But the Sri Lankan background, my grandmother migrated in the 70s from Sri Lanka to Australia. She left my grandfather and made the tough decision having a fairly affluent life there to bring my mum and my aunts and their husbands out to Australia, because while she was having a good life, she felt that things were changing and that she could sort of see in the future, that it may not be as easy for future generations. And she made the tough decision and came out here and brought us out here and then showed us all the best lesson in life around purpose and teamwork and how to how to demonstrate through action that care and that love. Yeah,

Graeme Cowan  16:52

it, honestly, it’s hard to really fathom the courage of that decision, isn’t it? You know, because you see, you know comfort, as you said, a comfortable life in Sri Lanka. But got a hunch that it’s not going in the right direction. So to make that call and to arrive in Australia, not have jobs, not having a support, and I dare suspect she had to work incredibly hard to build bring the her family across.

Damien Mu  17:21

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, we you know, she went from, and that was the fortune of the life that they had, and the blessings. And you know, she went from not working to working in a factory for the next 20 plus years, getting that back for 45 five o’clock in the morning, getting the train in the strange country in the dark, out 45 minute travel ride. I couldn’t imagine it like, you know, like, like, that was very brave Graeme, you know, like, in back then as well. And, but, yeah, it’s amazing what the power of purpose and, you know, yeah, genuine. Like, you know, we’re talking about care a lot today, but that care of I mean, she was the CEO of the family at the time, and she was a caring CEO, and we’re all blessed because of it. I mean, here I am, a generation later, been fortunate to be in the position I am, and our family all doing really well because of her, her action, and we learned great lessons from her,

Graeme Cowan  18:24

yeah, yeah. I went over to Ireland about five years ago, and that’s where my family came, yeah. And they came over in 1854 Wow. And just to see what a a social country Island is, you know, the pub and very, very social music, very rich cultural life. It was the same thing to bring seven kids to Australia, and you can’t, you can’t have a look at a union video. You can’t have a look at something. It’s a big punt. It was a big punt. Now, in that case, you know, it was really tough times, like a potato famine and all that sort of stuff. But it still blows me away, the courage of people to make that step. And you know, we should welcome people that do take that step because the courage it takes. You know, you’re, as you mentioned, your grandmother worked for 25 years in a factory like, oh my god, you know, just incredible drive, grit, everything, really, fantastic.

Damien Mu  19:26

Well, I mean, I mean, when you talk about that story, Graeme, my mind is, can you imagine, there was no planes in they’re getting on a ship with seven kids, exactly, sailing through some pretty challenging times in in ships. They were, you know, I mean, they were strong, but they didn’t have the technology and the other things today, so it is very brave just to get on the ship. So no I can, yeah, we, we are, you’re right, though. I think that. I think that also helps us to think about those stories and those those realities. I think. Think really important that we don’t forget that when we come into the workplace. Like, look at this. You and I have just talked, and, you know, wow, what wonderful stories and history we have there. And everyone’s got a story and everyone’s got history, but we should be welcoming, definitely, that’s why I said the second part was acceptance, yeah, like, you know, people accept people, you know, like people helping people feel accepted, because they may have come from completely different experiences, backgrounds, cultures, melodies, religions, and, you know, yeah, we’ve got to care for them.

Graeme Cowan  20:38

I understand that you started in the mail room at Colonial, is that, is that correct? And then can you give us a bit of a overview of how you got to where you are now, just in terms of steps, transitions, etc,

Damien Mu  20:51

yeah. Oh, look again, I feel very blessed and grateful So, and that’s why I do refer to the story about my grandmother and my my parents, who, you know, worked hard to give us the opportunities. Look, I started in the mail room absolutely while I was, while I was at University, studying. And, you know, I guess the it started there again, because all I did was I took what I knew best, which was seeing my parents and everyone else work hard. I took this job very seriously. And I was given a task where I had to log all the mail into the systems that if someone called up the customer service, because someone could say whether or not we’d receive something or whatever. And could be a certificate, could be a doctor’s thing, it could be anything. And so I would get in. And I just with a passion, wanted to log that mail in as quickly as possible, so that if a customer called, you know, okay. And then what I wanted to do was, rather than take eight hours, I tried to get it done in four so that I could get then use the remaining four hours to help the team process the applications and learnt that and so, but it was always in essence of the team and in service of the customer. And I think that was ingrained in me. That wasn’t, I’m not saying I’m a special in any way, not at all, but it was, it was that that helped me to sort of do really well, because, you know, like you can imagine, you know, there that was a quality that was really appreciate it in the workplace, people who wanted to be team members, who wanted to help others and really make sure the team succeeded. And so from there, Graeme, I was, you know, the team leader within a, I think, a year, and then couple years within two sort of managing the colonial master fund, new business and admin side of it, which ended up now being Colonial First State, which is this massive wealth, you know, and a client of ours and but I went from there to then, when, when the business was sold to the Commonwealth Bank, to migrating that business to Sydney, but then came back and worked at a wonderful role in my in my mid 20s, as heading up the insurance and claims services.

Graeme Cowan  23:02

Wow, wow.

Damien Mu  23:05

For the industry funds and so funds and, you know, managing dozens of claims.

Graeme Cowan  23:12

How did that experience shape your view of that function as a CEO now?

Damien Mu  23:18

Oh, hugely. I mean, look, I mean, look, I think all my experiences are sort of related, I mean, but in the sense that, you know, what I realized was that, you know, you that right at the start, if we’re going to care for our customers, at the time when they’re probably going through one of the most difficult times in their lives or their families, because we’re not talking about we’re talking about not health insurance claims, that we’re talking about life insurance claims, whether someone’s disability precludes them from working or someone’s passed away. And so what it really embarked on me, sorry, what it really left an important lesson and impression on me was, if we wanted to care for our customers, members of superannuation funds or or their families, you could only do that authentically if the people who were doing that felt that they were in an environment where they were cared for, and that they could connect to that purpose, yeah, and be, you know, because if you’re again, how, if you’re, if we’re treating people like, you know, a commodity, but we’re asking them to demonstrate care like, Oh, we’re paying you. So you do this, it’s very transactional that doesn’t transpire when you want to have a more you know, you need a more, more caring interaction on a transactional one with customers when they’re going through that time. So, you know, really important that you walk the talk internally that can translate externally.

Graeme Cowan  25:01

And what led to, then the transition to AIA, yeah,

Damien Mu  25:05

Well, I then got the opportunity to, you know, off the insurance and claims, to quickly go across and do something very meaningful again and purpose driven, which was to help put Australian super together, which was the merger between sta and ARF Australia retirement fund and superior trust Australia, the two large super funds, and create the vehicle. So I was the operations manager after the integration and merger, and that was again about having a great team who were just absolutely committed Graeme to a common goal and purpose around creating this superannuation fund back then that we believed would be a vehicle for Australians to have this great dream of a wonderful retirement after working having this close country of ours. And so we, we just, we were working seven days a week, and, you know, long days and nights to get this thing ready. And it was, it was, it was very special. But look, from there, I then came across to AI, G slash AIA, and really got back into the life insurance component of it. And again, was was very privileged to be able to, you know, lead a new sort of build a business around a purpose and a strategy in and grow it. Yeah, and not too dissimilar, when I started, we were 170 5 million and we have grown to over three, $4 billion of premium over that time. And, you know, done some amazing things, health insurance business, Wellness Business, but an advice business, but, um, that’s, that’s about a credit to the teams and people have believed in that purpose,

Graeme Cowan  26:40

and you’ve had a fair stint as CEO. I think you were saying, Is it 11 years that you’ve been in the role so far?

Damien Mu  26:47

It’s in my 11th Yes. In my 11th year, yes. And

Graeme Cowan  26:51

I know that you’ve been really huge on building a sense of purpose for the organization. Would I just explain a little bit about that evolution for you?

Damien Mu  27:02

Yeah, I think Graeme, back in 2014 it was an invitation to the organization and the leaders to say, do we want to become, do we want to embark on being purpose led organization? And why was it an invitation? Because I was very clear that you know that saying it is one thing, but what everyone gets energized is it? But it’s not a TED talk like you know, the TED talk is great, but, and Simon Sinek does a wonderful part of back then, talking about the why. But when you put it into practice, it’s more dangerous to say you are a purpose that organization, but then don’t deliver on it, then to just actually just say, you know, we’re an organization. We do this, and this is what we do, and away we go. So what I wanted to invite people to was to say that, you know, we don’t know all the answers. Yeah, but if we’re going to go on this journey, it is going to be a lot more, more than just a physical energy. We’re going to have to bring more emotional energy to our leadership. Because you know what we’re saying when you become a peach lead organization is that you care, and caring, as we just discussed. Graeme, it doesn’t just happen between nine and five. Customers don’t just live between nine and five. The people in our organization don’t just live between nine and five. It’s not that. It’s not about working 24/7 it’s understanding that there are things going on beyond the workplace and for walls that we need to be mindful of. And you know, we do have to recognize and care that, you know, some if one of our team members is not having a good time, well, we are saying Not that we’re going to solve the problem like we talked about, but we we understand. And how can we support? No, yeah, you know, it’s those things, so being really clear about the purpose, and then helping people to connect to it through in making it their own. And then just being relentless about, you got to be relentless about and constantly talk about it. And

Graeme Cowan  29:08

you also went beyond your customers, as I understand it as well. You know your intent was to contribute to Australia being the healthiest.

Damien Mu  29:16

Yes, sorry, Graeme, that purpose was around we talked initially. It was about making a difference in people’s lives and and connecting, how we do that through being there to support them at a time of need, as I mentioned, with life and healthy like life insurance. But then as we sort of develop the plan and the strategy around, you know, we wanted to have very clear strategy around bringing life, health and well being together back in 2014 Yeah, and integrating that in a way that an Australians could have ease, you know, could it? Could access that and support them through that and that, then we evolved the purpose from making a difference in people’s lives, to be articulate, to champion Australia, to be the healthiest and best protected nation that will. World, and really then helping to develop a fact based in a roadmap and data sort of substantiate the dream, and that was really important, but that, you know, we go beyond that, and we absolutely are proud to say that in the hallways of Canberra or to any of our partners and publicly, that that is something we’re championing. Last thing I just say about that, Graeme, sorry, because someone I’m passionate about is we don’t say at a purpose is to make Australia the healthiest nation, is to champion we can’t do it on our own. We don’t think we’re arrogant enough to think we can do it on our own, but we absolutely can do our part to help champion that cause and utilize our resources, energies and passions to help you, know, create a momentum behind that.

Graeme Cowan  30:45

Yeah, I really, really love that and but it’s all encompassing, isn’t it? Because to be able to deliver on it, you your employees, have to live a healthy life as well. What are some of the things that you’ve done to encourage employees and leaders and managers to do that? Well, yeah,

Damien Mu  31:07

so, I mean, look, Graeme, I think it’s something that we’re constantly challenged with, and it’s, it’s a it evolves quickly. Like, yeah, like, I mean, things in society are moving quickly, and we’re dealing with new, you know, problems and issues all the time. But I think, you know, we wanted to make some really clear ones. So first thing is, we implemented our quarterly recharge days, where once a quarter, everyone got a day to just recharge and take care of some of the personal admin, if they wanted to, or whatever. But lovely quarterly recharge days. They didn’t have to work any extra hours for that or anything like that. This is, you know, before working at home in COVID. I’m talking about these were initiatives. We introduced the walk and talk meetings. You know, back then, you know, Friday’s been able to where you, sort of, you know, your, your, I think they I’m weak. Used to call it your sport, sport, sports apparel or whatever. So people could walk to work, right to work, and not worry about it, you know, I think they call it leisure wear now, and all that sort of stuff, but just those things. Then also, we created, you know, some we do community events together, like the Mother’s Day classic. We all get behind the inter into departments, depths, challenge, yoga challenge, you know, like, there are a number of initiatives and and then we have, like, our international food days, and we have our equality network and our Women’s Leadership Program, which are all really important things to demonstrate our care internally, we’ve got to see a think tank which people get nominated to go on. So there isn’t one particular thing, but I think an afternoon free Fridays is the most recent one we that was probably, you know, during the bits of COVID, during COVID, we implemented that, yeah, where we’ve now blocked out the diaries so people don’t put meetings on Friday afternoon to help people because they were just working like, you know, yes, there’s a lot of people who say or people are working, remember that they’re really working from well, we found there was a lot that were working non stop, and there was no transition, because you weren’t going to and from work. So we started afternoon meeting free Fridays. And that was really about helping people to get into a good place, tidy up what they needed to and not feel like they had to do meetings till five, 536, o’clock, and then clean up and getting, you know, tidy up and get into the weekend. So those sort of things have been really important to us. And I could go on and on about different things.

Graeme Cowan  33:46

I remember you once talking about the walk and talk was, you know, people joined you, walking around, around the around your premises, and being able to chat about anything. What did you sort of learn in that? Or was it more just sort of a sense of connection with people? Yeah,

Damien Mu  34:06

it was asked the CEO. That was asked, the CEO was called, and I made a promise and a commitment that anyone who wanted to join me for a walk and talk me in could ask me any question. Obviously, you know we’re talking about any question in relation to business, etc, around or could be about me, if they wanted to learn something, and I would answer it. And so it was great people, you know, you it just created a really safe place for no matter where people were in the organization, to get on, get on some walking shoes, get out of the office that we weren’t intimidated by walls and meeting rooms and and, you know, walking is an amazing thing. When you’re walking, you’re not sitting across certain tables, not combative. You’re side by side, you know, in. Sure, and yeah. So people would ask me all sorts of things. They were actually the most, the the the most common questions I’d get were really around not they weren’t really about the business performance. It was about, you know, what did I do in my career to get there? How do I deal with stress? How do I deal with these things? And it was, and, but, but, as with anything, it ended up being sort of a really good sometimes, in most instances, a broader group discussion. It wasn’t just about, how did I deal with stress? The next thing is, I’d say, anyone else want to share some talks? And then, you know, we’re walking along, and you got the thoughts of 2030, people coming into the room. So it was really uplifting, energizing and a good way to connect with people. But I was, it was more, less business orientated questions actually interesting.

Graeme Cowan  35:54

You obviously, you know, look after the insurance of, is it millions Australians? Probably, yeah, we ensure

Damien Mu  36:03

about three and a half million Aussies and

Graeme Cowan  36:08

and I read somewhere before I quoted you, but tell me if it’s wrong that since 2019 mental health claims payments had increased by 70% over that period. Was that correct?

Damien Mu  36:20

Yeah, there’s as well. That was the correct at that point. But if we to give you another set of statistics to sort of validate the concern, an issue that is facing our society in in Australia, when we talk about healthiest Australia, this is one of the number one things impacting, impacting that roughly 25 to 30% of disability claims in Australia for mental health now, nice and let’s just, let’s just take, we don’t that. Don’t. What’s What does that mean? Well, if you think about the industry paying out over five to $6 billion a year in claims. And I’m just trying to give you different numbers to give the magnitude of the size we’re talking about. It’s a huge number Graeme, and it’s not and as I say, said in very public forums, mental health is not discriminatory around it’s not a age. It doesn’t discriminate on age. Doesn’t discriminate gender. So it is a, you know, lots of time people think life insurance is about older people and their claims well known. You know, under 25 it represented around 22% of claims,

Graeme Cowan  37:37

unbelievable, and it’ so 20%

Graeme Cowan  37:43

and that’s the point here. And you know, in terms of actual claims, what that means is that there’s huge distress with younger people. Isn’t there in terms of stress, anxiety, depression and and all the you know, the stats say that you know something is not working and it is a real challenge. I think I might have mentioned previously that about 12 months ago, I put a post on LinkedIn which essentially said the best way to boost employmental health is to give them good managers. And I attached a study that, you know supported that, and it was a post that absolutely went viral like nothing else I’ve shared. It ended up having, it’s over 2.8 million Wow, all around the world. And I would say just, and there’s 1000s of comments, I would say in 95% of the cases that people supported, you know that view. So how can we train managers on how to create teams where that doesn’t happen, or at least there’s a big prevention factor? What are your thoughts around that? Yeah,

Damien Mu  39:00

oh gosh, it’s, it’s such a it’s so true. I mean, when you look at the number one factor in any engagement survey, or it’s the most influential factor, is their leader, their direct leader. Yeah, that direct leader has so much. I mean, I don’t. And when you think about it, you know, you go, sorry, step back for just a second so we can understand, like, because it’s not intentional, but like, you think about how it could be leaders to your point, right? You go from me being in the mail room, being really productive, of entering the mailing to then going out and learning how to process applications. So I’ve been taught how to enter mailing through the system. I’ve been taught how to process an application, then suddenly I’m given the team leader role. Yeah, yeah. Not once has anyone told me this is all I’ve had, is the role model of my leader, yeah? And then hope that they were a good one, because I’m going to probably take 80% of 90% of what they do, yeah, yeah. So, so I think. Question is so, but when you think about the responsibility at a team leader level, I mean, you have the responsibility for someone who might be in their first job at a school, and whether you tell them they’re doing a good job or the way you treat them could build their confidence or destroy their confidence for a lifetime. I mean, I’ve not been dramatic about it, but it’s true, right? I mean, like, it’s scary out in that world, yeah, yeah. And so you look at this team leader, and you go, wow, you know, like, they’re, they’re a leader, and, yeah, you know, like, so I do think about in pontific Like, I like to reflect on those things and think about what’s behind them. Because, like, and I don’t think that we have as as a society, or as a as a business world, really understood that responsibility that we be we sort of hand or expect on these team leaders who’ve suddenly got responsibility for people, whether they get, whether that individual gets a two and a half percent pay rise or 2% like at that level, all that matters so much. It costs living pressures 100% the responsibility that they have and the impact they have in terms of changing lives is so profound, those really informative stages and yeah,

Graeme Cowan  41:18

yeah. So

Damien Mu  41:20

I’m agreeing with you in many words, that it is so important that we get the right help leaders to be the best leaders and to create that. How do we do that? Graeme, I don’t have a magic answer. What I’d say is, I think it is a combination of absolutely that role modeling, right? Because where do we learn from? We learn from watching, like, just throughout history and everything it’s we learn from what we observe and what we experience. So it’s got to be, got to have really good role models. Yeah, boo, we have to combine that with a balance, you know, yes, there is those that learn from, from, you know, educational type classes and theory, and you know, that comes in all sorts of forms as well. So I do think those leadership type, basic leadership courses are important. And those courses then need to be not just about, you know, technical, but to your the work that are you okay? And you know, your we care 365, and other things that would be would really be about equipment that is to be aware of the conversations of what’s going on and words, things that they can be looking out for or or things they could be doing to engender a more, you know, caring environment be a more supportive leader are really important. And then I think the third one Graeme that I would just put on the table is, I think we need to create more leader, leader networks.

Graeme Cowan  42:48

Yeah, yeah. I really love that. And how do you have any vision about how that could operate?

Damien Mu  42:54

Yeah, I think for me, look, you know, again, I think I was selling someone’s the other day. I know you want to I know you. I think you know, unfortunately, there’s a bit of a bias that happens, unconscious bias that happens that a lot of organizations and individuals pitch their courses and their things at senior levels. And it’s like the senior levels of organizations have sort of been spoiled for opportunities. Absolutely. What I said was, Do you know what would be really amazing if you could develop this amazing program, but actually, don’t pitch it in competition with every other big company that’s trying to get the CEO and the executive on a program, and is, how do we get it to all the team leaders of that 10,000 organization? You’re talking about all the two and a half 1000 here at AA, who are really the ones who can have the most impact? Yeah, and, and so I think Graeme, you know, it’s looking at how we can scale that. And for me, it’s setting up those networks. You see that there are a lot of networks that are, when I say networks, groups that are formed around, you know, if you’re a CEO, there’s the CEO group, there’s this group, there’s that group. I don’t see that happening as well the team leader, like Team Leader level, and I think that’s where we could, I could see that in a space where we could create across organizations, and, you know, just even off the back of this conversation, it’s one where you go, right, how could we as a financial services or even just the life insurance industry, create a forum for leaders of claims teams to come together and talk about, not, not technical claims assessment, yeah, yeah, leadership and yeah, a forum for that, but yeah, I don’t have the answers to it all.

Graeme Cowan  44:49

One of the things that I do in my keynote presentations is talk about, you know, starting, are you okay with Gavin Larkin? Starting with nothing, no employees. And. Uh, somehow managing to, you know, get through the first year and grow it and to what it’s become today, which is, you know, quite extraordinary in terms of a movement. But I, you know, reflect on what made it really special. And it was, you know, we had each other’s back. We had complimentary skills and and then I often ask people to think about their best team, and it could have been this role now, previous role when they worked at McDonald’s, or when they played footy or netball. And what was it made it different, and I’ve got about 10 options now. Have a live poll, and in 95% of the cases, the top three are, we enjoyed working together. We had each other’s back, and we cared about each other and their basic human needs, aren’t they? You know, it’s about belonging and being part of something with a group and going further. And we’ve, we’ve, you know, also really thought about the sort of training that mid level managers and frontline managers need. And it is about learning simple things, you know, to create that sense of belonging, to create a psychologically safe environment and but also that they need to practice self care as well, because if they’re not in good shape, they can’t help people. And you know, we’ve been fortunate enough to help Aldi to train, you know, their 1500 store managers on how to have more supportive conversations, how to be more expert in guiding for help and and I think that that grocery CEO that I caught up with last week, he referred to it As hitting clay when trying to do a change process, because very often leaders are right on board, their fingers on the pulse, and they’re also a little bit away from some of the, you know, difficult face to face and customer facing things. And that was his conclusion as well. Was, you know, to get through clay, you know, we have to invest in the middle managers and also the frontline managers to really, to really make a difference.

Damien Mu  47:26

Yeah, I agree, and I don’t think it is, actually, and when I say leaders, I mean, you know, I think it’s important to make sure the team is but I think we should be introducing all about teams, whether they’re in a leadership position is to start to to expose them and get them comfortable with the types of things you and I are talking about there that will equip them for when they do move into it, not wait till they are there. Yeah, and cultivate those behaviors. But um, you know, I think it’s look. I mean, for me, I just grabbed this because it’s always on my desk, right? That’s our purpose on the page. And, you know, it’s really important that all leaders, I wanted to be owned by everyone, so they, you know, the leader team leaders and the teams go through and they work through, and they work out how they connect with them. What resonates a couple of things that we started to implement was, you know, like, even with my exco, my executives, they have their what their their work goals, and they also give me their wellbeing goal. Lovely that they’re working on, and we sort of try to help each other with that. I’ve seen some of our teams now also, they have their wellbeing goals, they support each other on the boards, and they do these things together as a team. But one of the things I found challenging is, you know, we it’s getting, it’s getting the art is always, well, it’s the art and the science, and it’s the balance right. How do you get it right? And, you know, in our intent to be more, you know, organizationally, resilient and governed, well, we like these things like accountability and individual goals, etc. But actually, you know, when you described something before Graeme, you said the three things we loved was the teams that worked the best is that we enjoyed working together. We had each other’s back, and the other one was

Graeme Cowan  49:17

about each other. Sorry, we cared about each other. Yeah, we cared about

Damien Mu  49:20

each other. Then what I was gonna get is sometimes organization. I think one of the unintended behavioral economic impacts of trying to get these accountability statements and is that it drives individuality, not individual and individual teams, not an enterprise view. Yeah, and it they’re there for good reason, because, you know, we want to make sure there’s an organization we get these things done, and we know that someone’s got responsibility for it, but it doesn’t always perpetuate that. Working together and that care, yeah, I think it’s, how do we get that balance right, you know? And so that’s why it’s really important. Despite, i. Or in parallel of having those individual KPIs and accountabilities, we also have the practices, yeah, that reward that and celebrate the team. Yeah,

Graeme Cowan  50:16

yeah. I can’t believe how quickly the time. Sorry, yeah, maybe it’s been very, very engaging. I’ve learned it very much. But one thing I always sort of ask at the end is knowing what you know now, knowing your role and all your work experience. What advice would you give your eight and your old self if you could go back and talk to that person with honesty,

Damien Mu  50:46

I’d say, Yeah, hard work is important, but also have some fun. Find some joy. Find time to join. Make time for it. Think it’s really important. Like the time goes quickly, not just this conversation, but life. The other one would be a little bit like what I said about, you know, how my thoughts have evolved around, what does care mean in the workplace is, you know, don’t be don’t hesitate to ask for help and support. Yeah, it’s a sign of strength. Love it.

Graeme Cowan  51:18

Yeah, love it. Thanks for being part of the curing CEO. I’ve really, really loved our chat. It’s

Damien Mu  51:25

It’s been great to see you again. Graeme, congratulations on all the great work you’re doing, but also over the many years. I mean, your passion and commitment to it is unparalleled. And you know, it’s been a pleasure to see you and work with you and be part of today.

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