#11 Staying ahead of the curve – Danny Gilbert, Managing Partner Gilbert and Tobin (s01ep11)
DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE
- Nurturing interpersonal workplace relationships that foster a culture of care.
- The process of building a successful law firm from the ground up.
- Danny’s commitment to the greater good through pro-bono legal work.
- Improving the lives of our First Nation People through the justice system.
- Building a successful high-performing business that prioritises caring.
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Transcript from the interview
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Danny Gilbert, Graeme Cowan
Graeme Cowan 1:32
I’m really looking forward to having Danny Gilbert on the show today. Welcome, Danny.
Danny Gilbert 4:14
Graeme Cowan 4:16
Danny, what does care in the workplace mean to you?
Danny Gilbert 4:22
Well, pretty simple proposition. I think it just means trying to build a culture where people look out for each other. Where people basically care about the people they work with care about their well being. Care about building interpersonal relationships with them, not just transactional relationships. Having some knowledge of knowledge about people about their lives and a preparedness just to engage in the ordinary, everyday conversations of life. That’s what it means that on a daily kind of basis, when things go wrong in people’s lives, it requires the demonstration of an elevated sense of care and responsibility.
Graeme Cowan 5:16
When we spoke previously, you talked, used the word decency. And how do you how do you define that? In your work sense? Is it similar? Or is there a difference?
Danny Gilbert 5:27
Right, basic stuff. It’s about treating people as you would like to be treated yourself.
Graeme Cowan 5:32
Danny Gilbert 5:33
Being open with them being respectful. You know, I’ve been kind and recognizing their own individual humanity.
Graeme Cowan 5:47
So 20 Oh, sorry. 33 years ago, you and Tony Tobin decided to start the firm. Why did you want to go out by yourselves?
Danny Gilbert 5:58
Oh, well, we just wanted to not be part of the big firm we’d been in. And just the excitement of building a practice ourselves really. And just seeing how we’d go not that we set out or I set out to build something as large and as significant as G and T today, just kind of grew along the way, not that it grew without a strategy and thought, but when we started it, we thought we’d just have a fairly small, manageable little practice.
Graeme Cowan 6:32
So you never envisaged that you now have 1000 people?
Danny Gilbert 6:36
No, no. I was quite shocked last week when I heard that.
Graeme Cowan 6:41
What do you think is really the important ingredients of a good young lawyer working with Gilbert and Tobin?
Danny Gilbert 6:50
Oh well, they’ve gotta be smart. They’ve got to be able to empathize with their clients and what their client’s need. Got to be able to assemble information, understand the legal issues, understand the commercial imperatives of what the client’s are looking for, and deliver a product that’s appropriately shaped to meet the client’s expectations. They’ve got to be capable of working in a collaborative environment, working in environment where people care about each other.
Graeme Cowan 7:24
And I also read a….
Danny Gilbert 7:25
And be ambitious and ambitious and determined to succeed and a capacity to work hard.
Graeme Cowan 7:33
And I also read was a speech I think you gave at the University of New South Wales that you think lawyers should have a sense of responsibility to the to the community as well. Why do you think that’s an important element for lawyers?
Danny Gilbert 7:47
I think it rounds them out as human beings. And I think that we should not lose sight of the privileged position we hold in society, in society has conferred on lawyers, a special status, not always might say they’ve earned that that probably right. But then he learned because society has decided to confer the opportunity on them. And they don’t allow everybody to do it, you have to meet certain requirements. And that should be regarded as a privilege, and should be considered in the backdrop of the best, best traditions of the legal profession. And those traditions include a commitment to the greater good.
Graeme Cowan 8:33
And you’ve had a very, always very big involvement in pro bono work with Gilbert and Tobin, what is that done for the firm do you think?
Danny Gilbert 8:43
Well, I think it creates an added sense of purpose for even people who don’t personally engage in pro bono work, I think, feel pleased if not proud, to belong to a firm that has that commitment, hopefully, as part of the DNA of the firm, but this is what we should do we give back to the community in an area where our skills really allow us to do that our skills as lawyers and I think that all lawyers should have a commitment to the rule of law. And the rule of law can only really be be served if you live in a society that has a some kind of reasonable standards of justice, and equality before the law. I think we’ve all obliged to make some efforts to contribute to that.
Graeme Cowan 9:40
You’ve personally had a very long history in working to help indigenous people. What, what started that, that mission for you?
Danny Gilbert 9:50
Oh, well, I got involved with the Catholic Church at Redfern where I was looking to get engaged with the community of Redfern and understand what was happening there. And that was in the early 80s. And there was a lot of need. And I got involved with all sorts of indigenous people and indigenous issues. Through that, and that extended to engagement with indigenous leaders across the country after a period of time.
Graeme Cowan 10:23
I read in a recent book put out about the 30 year history of Gilbert and Tobin, Noel Pearson, wrote a very glowing introduction for yourself, also Tony Tobin, so I gather he’s been part of the firm or been involved with the firm for quite a period of time as well.
Danny Gilbert 10:42
Oh, well, he’s been involved in the sense that I have a very close relationship with him, going back a long time, 15 or more years, and I co-chair his Cape York Group in the, in far North Queensland. And we do quite a lot of pro bono work and I am engaged with Noel and other leaders across a range of activities, the most important of which today is constitutional recognition of the voice.
Graeme Cowan 11:12
When you reflect on your 33 years with the firm and how it’s grown and changed, has there been a really tough time you’ve been through at some stage that you were really challenged?
Danny Gilbert 11:25
Oh, yeah, there’s been points at which the partnership over that period of time, you’d expect there are points at which the partnership might become divided on issues. And it’s always a challenge to sort of keep your head down and remain resilient and be determined to continue to chart your course. Through those things and maintain a clarity of what it is you’re trying to achieve. not always easy, but there been some difficult moments there. But nothing bad looking back with the benefit of hindsight, was too difficult.
Graeme Cowan 12:06
Well, what was one of those periods when, you know, the partners were, I guess, in different camps? What can you give an example of that was?
Danny Gilbert 12:16
Well, not really, I wouldn’t want to go into some of it’s a bit personal. I think at the time, we, I mean, just personal differences between partners. Those things have sorted themselves out over the years. Was one thing was a bit challenging was when we decided to break away from our brand, as a media and technology telecommunications brand. For a boutique brand which we had developed strongly in the from the time we started to the mid to late 90s. And early in 2000. Otherwise time for change. And we should build out from that and aim to build a top leading corporate practice. And that would that mean taking on the establishment firms much larger than we were with a significant history going back more than 100 years for some of them. This question was asked, Well, what makes you think we can take on these behemoths and challenge them and take market share from them and build ourselves into a position where we’re at least as good as them. I thought that was a pretty interesting and exciting challenge. Some people thought that we would destroy the brand we have in the middle in doing that, and not achieve what we hoped to achieve. Anyway, I think we’ve largely, we’ve achieved much of that. It’s that was the right decision to make.
Graeme Cowan 13:54
And what made you confident that you could do that?
Danny Gilbert 13:57
We had success. We started the firm in 88. We had been successful in everything we tried to do so far. In building a media and telecommunications and technology practice. I couldn’t see why, with the right focus, the right strategy, and the right people, we wouldn’t be able to build a leading corporate practice. Just a question of thinking about those things and getting the right people and developing some clarity about what it is you’re trying to achieve and having people by and large buy into that with you.
Graeme Cowan 14:34
Yeah, very good. When you recall, growing up and I understand you grew up in in new Griffiths in New South Wales and country New South Wales. What impact has that had on you in terms of how you live your life?
Danny Gilbert 14:50
Hard question, those are always hard questions to answer. I mean, I think it gave me, probably like many people who grew up on farms, you know a very strong work ethic. You had no choice, but to have a strong work ethic and working hard was so normal, it didn’t say anything else, any other choice to make. And I think you had to strive hard all the time and you had to sort of battle away with the elements, I suppose.
Graeme Cowan 15:28
My father had a country practice of Accountants, in Taree, and he always tried to hire people who come from farms. They knew about hard work, and they would just knuckle down and do things. So ah he very much respected that approach.
Danny Gilbert 15:47
I’d say, I’d say it’s only one of the elements really.
Graeme Cowan 15:55
When you reflect….
Danny Gilbert 15:57
I suppose going back into farming was one thing that you could see growing up, you can see the productive outcome of efforts made, which is not so easy to say in every other kind of line of business. But if you grew up in a farm, you’re able to see that every year and you’re able to compare your father’s sort of own achievements against others, and form some views about what makes a successful farmer.
Graeme Cowan 16:28
And, you know, there’s obviously a lot outside controls a farmer that my father, as an accountant said, they were very good farmers and not so good for farmers in terms of how they manage their money and their stock, and all that sort of things as well.
Danny Gilbert 16:41
Graeme Cowan 16:41
I had a look at just this morning at Glass Door, which is a, as you may know, is a site that, you know, has details of people that have worked with you. And in the past. And I just really looked at the in 2021. And there were some really great things said most work most were five or four stars, and some of the things said, great culture, lovely team, progressive, honest and hardworking team, great innovators. And you mentioned before about, you know, your communications practice and how good that was. How do you have an innovative and progressive firm? What have you done to keep on reinventing yourselves?
Danny Gilbert 17:31
Well, you got to keep an eye on the future. You’ve got to look at what changes are happening in the community, in the business world. You’ve got to have a view about where they’re headed. And you’ve got to be engaged with people who are at the edge of all of that, you’ve got to be listening to them and following the trends. And you can’t sit still, you can’t sit on your hands. And you have to be prepared to make the investment to engage with the right technologies. You don’t have to be bleeding edge about it. And you have to give people in the organization, some space to engage with new ideas and new technology. And ultimately, you have to employ the right people to drive it forward. You have to have a commitment to it, to really remaining at the very leading edge of technological change and thinking about it all the time, and pushing.
Graeme Cowan 18:30
And how do you keep a good eye on the horizon about knowing the trends that are happening across business across government?
Danny Gilbert 18:38
I mean, you’ve got to be out there in the business community, you got to be talking to people, you’ve got to read stuff. You’ve just got to make sure that you engage with what’s happening.
Graeme Cowan 18:50
Danny Gilbert 18:50
that it’s about developing connections, listening to people reading and being curious.
Graeme Cowan 18:57
Danny Gilbert 18:57
and make sure that you’re employing people that have a similar approach. Curiosity is a pretty vital aspect of it.
Graeme Cowan 19:07
You said before about, you know, broadening the scope of the business moving away from a Communications and Technology focus to, you know, a broad view. Can you think of other areas in the past where you’ve spotted an opportunity and decided to invest in it, and it’s, it’s reaped rewards?
Danny Gilbert 19:30
Well, I think today, all of the practice areas that we are now in today, we’re here because they are successful, and they’re sort of profitable. We decided some years ago, I think that we wouldn’t stray into areas that whilst I might be related to the practice of law, are not really part of the mainstream. So we’ve decided we’d focus on being lawyers and delivering the best work we can do for our clients, but not straying into areas where the consulting firms and the big accounting firms were strongly engaged, because that probably wouldn’t be the place where we could compete very well. That we’ve decided just to stick to our knitting as lawyers really can take some firms have got taken on risk practices, technology practices, providing technology services to their clients. We’ve played around with some of that, particularly in technology in the past, but it didn’t seem to work as well as we thought we’d like it to. So we stopped doing all of that sort of extra curricular activity now for some years. Long time. Really.
Graeme Cowan 20:57
Yeah. When you reflect on your career, what do you feel is something that you feel particularly proud about?
Danny Gilbert 21:06
No. I’m pleased, I’m pleased that that I’ve been with others, able to build a firm of the standing of G&T. I’m pleased with what it contributes to, to the community and to employment opposition of employment opportunities that we have for our staff. And yeah, they make you all feel pretty happy.
Graeme Cowan 21:37
Yeah, I would imagine there’s a lot there to be very proud about. When you…
Danny Gilbert 21:43
One can’t afford to be too proud. It’s a slippery slide down the other side of the hill, right, pride leads to hubris which is a very unattractive quality.
Graeme Cowan 21:59
When you consider the introvert/extrovert scale, what.. what side do you consider yourself? And how does that impact the way that you lead others?
Danny Gilbert 22:09
I think I probably lean, I don’t think I’m an extrovert, but on the scale, if there’s, if there’s an if there’s a line over which you cross one to the other, I’m probably a bit more of an extrovert, but I could be a bit introverted in some ways as well. I don’t think I’m you know, would people wouldn’t describe me as an extrovert. You think? Sometimes, sometimes. Sharon says sometimes.
Graeme Cowan 22:36
It’s very interesting with this show, because most of the leaders and the CEOs I’ve interviewed would consider themselves more on the introvert side, but they say that they learn how to be extroverts. In fact, most would probably say that so, you know, they might be more comfortable. They might regenerate their energy by being by themselves, but they also know very much on how to project themselves as well.
Danny Gilbert 23:05
Yeah, now, look, I get my energy and ideas from other people. I need to have other people around me who don’t generate too much on my own. I’m okay in the shower, coming up with ideas, or at three o’clock in the morning. But a lot of people are like that. No, I’m probably on the extrovert side, but I’m not, you know, I can think of a number of people are. Yeah, it’s a pretty broad scale.
Graeme Cowan 23:31
Danny Gilbert 23:33
It’s not a narrow, it’s not a narrow field.
Graeme Cowan 23:36
No, not at all. When you think of high performing teams, what what in your view is the real key to a very successful team?
Danny Gilbert 23:50
If you’re talking about lawyers had to be very good lawyers have to be smart. They have to have a very empathetic engagement with their clients and what it is that their clients are trying to achieve. And they have to make sure that they craft a product that meets those needs. And not that falls outside those needs. That is not to say that the role of the lawyer is simply to do everything that the client wants or wants the lawyer to do, or things that the lawyer should do. Because our role is as independent advisors, but subject to that, and you always have to keep that in your mind, It’s about crafting a product that meets the commercial outcomes that the client is looking for. And then you know, in a corporate firm, it requires lawyers who are capable of having a commercial approach to things who can work out what issues matter and what issues matter less, discarding those that matter less and when you’re a transactional firm, like Gilbert and Tobin is, you’re inevitably dealing with large teams of people. And if you’re a partner, your ability to project management, project manage and show leadership, for those teams is terrifically important. I talked about transactional work that had made the same observation about complex dispute work, about infrastructure, about competition, or regulatory issues as well. So you want to have teams that are fairly cohesive, teams that exchange information, so that everybody in the team knows what they’re doing. But I think the empathetic engagement with the client, and understanding the client is really key. You can be the smartest lawyer in the room, and deliver a product that a client really does not have much useful.
Graeme Cowan 26:00
Mm hmm. How do you make it safe for people to speak up in team meetings?
Danny Gilbert 26:11
I don’t know the answer to that. I think you try to build a culture where people are encouraged to say what they think. I met with a lawyer today, young partner, who feeling somewhat constrained by the pressures being put on him by another partner, you know, and I told him what he should say to that other part. You know, and basically, it was being direct and being rude if he chooses to, but people need to look after themselves. I say this to the summer Clerk’s when they come and they’re going to be working with people “look after you. Look after yourself, don’t be afraid to speak up, put your hand up.” So I think it’s about encouraging that kind of environment, and where partners who have the power, think that they can use that power to constrain the ordinary reaction or interaction of other human beings. That’s not appropriate. And I don’t like cultures that are really heavily informed by status and titles, because status and titles are really symbols of influence and power and they don’t really work well, in building a collaborative environment. So I don’t like all that crap.
Graeme Cowan 27:49
Danny Gilbert 27:50
And as far as I’m concerned, you know, it wouldn’t never really, if partners say to me how dare that young lawyer say that to me or speak to me in that way. You know, that would not typically be a conversation, which I’m, which would garner much interest for me.
Graeme Cowan 28:07
Mm hmm. Yeah. You’ve really chosen to help make diversity a priority in the organization? I guess that speaks to what you’ve just talked about? Why don’t you think that, and I know that you have a pretty good record here. I think 36% of your partners are women. Why don’t you think there are more women in senior leadership across Australian business and government?
Danny Gilbert 28:35
Well, I’ll just answer your question. I mean, I don’t know that I’ve actively chosen it. I would rather think maybe, I’m wrong, but I would rather than think that the culture that I’ve talked about here, is that attractive one for women. That where people are treated with respect, people don’t bring hierarchy, traditional hierarchical views, and that would include, you know, traditional, sexist, anti women thinking that the players, I hope we don’t have we don’t really have too much of that. I’m sure we have elements of unconscious bias, maybe in some instances, conscious bias. But I think there’s a sense of that’s not acceptable here. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say that progression and success at Gilbert and Tobin is just as easy for a woman as it is for a man. I think it manifestly is not. And you can just sort of you got to try to break down those barriers. But people bring those views to work and it’s part of societal thinking and the way that people are brought up. I’m not allowed to say you can’t say it’s the way their parents and what they grew up in their household and what they bring to work so …but you also got to encourage women to speak up and push back as well. Well, I appreciate that many women get pretty tired of doing that and find it a tiresome thing to have to do.
Graeme Cowan 30:22
When you think…
Danny Gilbert 30:22
Well, I think we’re okay at it. And, you know, we’ve had the benefit of a number of very successful women, senior women who really, one of the best things you can do is have successful senior women in your business. great role model. Not always, but mostly.
Graeme Cowan 30:45
Yeah. When you think back over your career, has it been some really good career advice you’ve received for someone that you’ve really taken on board? And it really had an impact on you? Can you think of the advice and the person that gave it to you?
Danny Gilbert 31:07
Oh, look, nothing really jumps out of me. You have you friends, and you talk to people a lot about issues, I find that, not so much in the early years, but mostly when you’re engaged with someone, and you’re seeking their advice, you’re coming at it from a position of having thought about an a good deal. And so those people might help you refine it, help you shape it a bit more. And I don’t think there are too many occasions where you sit down with someone, and something you’ve never thought of is presented to you.
Graeme Cowan 31:50
Danny Gilbert 31:56
That doesn’t mean that there’s not room for advice. And doesn’t mean you won’t get things wrong. But I’ve always been someone who is happily sought out advice from others. And along the way, I would have taken advice from people about what it takes to build a leading corporate firm. That’s for sure, both from partners internally and externally from former partners as well. And I’ve learned along the way, I mean, whatever leadership skills I have, you know, I didn’t have them when I started, that’s sure. Yes, learn along the way.
Graeme Cowan 32:38
How do you keep yourself in good physical and mental shape?
Danny Gilbert 32:44
I try to exercise but not as frequently as I’d like to, you know, I don’t have too many stresses and strains outside the office. I have a long and happy marriage. All those things help.
Graeme Cowan 33:01
Danny Gilbert 33:04
Last time, I asked my wife, it was happy. I think she’s
Graeme Cowan 33:13
Law has some high levels of emotional distress and as a sector, why do you think it is so high?
Danny Gilbert 33:25
I just think the demands of the work. You know, clients are demanding, very quick results, everything over time pressures around every product that you deliver for a client. Time brief for a dispute lawyer the pressures that are imposed on you by the courts. And if you’re doing deals that have pressures placed on you by the client, excuse me. And it requires, you know, pretty….The work is quite intense.
Graeme Cowan 34:02
Danny Gilbert 34:04
So pressures to get a job done. And, you know, it’s just not suited for everybody. But you know, we’ve had people who no doubt, I know, we put under too much pressure, and you talked about glass ceiling, and you were kind enough not to mention negative observations that are sometimes made there. Sometimes they are made that we are a bit of a hothouse. And that’s true. And I don’t wear that as a badge of pride at all, but I don’t know how different we are from other firms. And, and we’ve really got to try to measure to look after our people but there’s no getting away from the fact that if you come to a first year, corporate law firm, and then you get you you’re deliberately stepping into a high pressure workplace. And I tried to be honest with people about that. And so that they know what it is they’re doing. Of course, for younger people, you can say that, but they don’t really know what it’s like to actually experienced that. So I respect people who, after a period, don’t particularly want to work in this kind of environment. One of the challenges is that, you know, each is an environment that in an archetypal sense, the men might survive better than women, because men make a lot of the rules the client, the men make the rules from the client. And if you are working in that stressful environment, and if you’re a woman, and you’re a minority in that environment, I think it’s a layer of a different, a layer of additional challenges for people. You know, we’re living at a time where there are changes happening there. And hopefully, people and men are more conscious of the, particularly conscious of the need to make sure they contribute to a workplace that inspires and motivates women and respects women, just as they are motivated, inspired and respected.
Graeme Cowan 36:35
When you started the firm, obviously, you knew everyone’s name, and quite a long while you probably did. How do you keep a finger on the pulse now when you get to 1000 People? How do you…
Danny Gilbert 36:48
Oh well you can’t really yeah, it’s hard to keep your finger on the, you keep your finger on the pulse at the partner level. But you can’t have a personal relationship with that number of people. And you’d like to but you can’t. It’s important to get to know people who’ve been with the organization for a period of time. But even that’s a challenge. I think people don’t expect that I’m going to remember everybody’s name or even that I’ve already met them twice or three times.
Graeme Cowan 37:19
Mm hmm. If you could choose anyone, anyone who’s passed away to have a dinner with who would that be?
Danny Gilbert 37:30
Dear me. You didn’t tell me that? Well, the obvious point, the obvious person is Jesus Christ. To choose him. Maybe. Next question.
Graeme Cowan 37:57
What? When you reflect on, you know what, you know now? What advice would you give to your 20 year old self just starting off that you’ve learned the hard way, and would have made life a little bit easier if you’d taken it on board when you were 20 years old?
Danny Gilbert 38:16
Well, don’t limit yourself, don’t put barriers around your capability and potential and what it is you can achieve. And all and develop a really resilience to jump hurdles and achieve whatever it is you feel you want to consistent with the kind of lifestyle that you want to have.
Graeme Cowan 38:39
And how do people put barriers around themselves? One of the things that they do that inhibit growth?
Danny Gilbert 38:45
Well, I think it starts early with kids, you know, I can do that. I can’t do that. You know, some people want to say that that’s not for them and it may not be for the mat a bad IP for them. But if it’s if they’d like it to be for them, then they ought not to be having those barriers. But I don’t know. That’s a complex sociological question. Yeah.
Graeme Cowan 39:11
Is there anything, it’s been great to catch up Danny, is there anything relevant that we haven’t discussed around, you know, care in the workplace, performance in the workplace, things that make good organizations tick?
Danny Gilbert 39:27
No, I mean, I think that building a culture where everybody feels valued and respected. I always say that doesn’t matter who it is that gets out of the lift to come to work every day. They’re a human being with her own needs and they get out of the lift every day and come to work because the organization has decided that they’ve got an important role to play in the firm. It doesn’t matter how people might like to categorize that role in the hierarchy of roles, it’s nonetheless an important role and it demands respect.
Graeme Cowan 39:59
Definitely. How long do you see yourself working for?
Danny Gilbert 40:19
I don’t know. Long as I’m upright.
Graeme Cowan 40:25
That’s good. Well I’ll share some research, actuarial research, that basically says the younger you retire the younger you die.
Danny Gilbert 40:33
Is that true?
Graeme Cowan 40:33
So…that is true. So if you want to know
Danny Gilbert 40:35
I thought that, I thought that was just a bit of a an urban myth or a cliche.
Graeme Cowan 40:39
No. If you’re interested, I’ll send you the evidence which shows it. You know, I think I think, yeah
Danny Gilbert 40:47
Don’t send me something that I have to read. You have no idea how many people every day, send me something to read.
Graeme Cowan 40:54
Well, I’ll share a number a little bit of research, the Gallup organization, looking at men that got to 95. And which is quite, you know, this was getting back about 10 years ago. And they found out the average age that men that were at 95, retired was at 85. You know, I think if you’re engaged if you’re active, and I think the way that you’re constantly.
Danny Gilbert 41:22
Well that means that I’ve got 30 years left.
Graeme Cowan 41:28
Very, very good news. Thanks very much, Danny. Pleasure catching up. And, you know, real credit to you in terms of the organization, the culture you’ve built. And, and I think that, you know, this has so many younger people in your organization that want to keep on evolving the business and that you’re open to it. And it’s wonderful to see.
Danny Gilbert 41:55
Righto, thank you. Thank you. I mean, I don’t like talking about myself, but thanks for the opportunity.
Graeme Cowan 42:01
No worries. All the best.
Danny Gilbert 42:03
Thank you, bye.
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