Workplace mental health

#65 Wellness Wins, Chris Cummings, Group CEO, Wellbeing at Work

Jun 3, 2024

Chris Cummings, the Group CEO of Wellbeing at Work, firmly believes that wellbeing goes beyond wellness initiatives. It involves a fundamental rethinking of work, leadership, and culture. Chris and his team are passionate about encouraging organisations to prioritise wellbeing as a strategic initiative — focusing on community, connection, and knowledge. Chris and his team at Wellbeing at Work have been delivering trusted and independent content from global experts. Their aim is to empower clients to create successful initiatives that yield proven results.
    
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"Caring in the workplace for me is creating an environment that allows a culture where people can be themselves."
- Chris Cummings

DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE

  • What caring in the workplace means for Chris
  • Making wellbeing a strategic priority through community, connection & knowledge
  • Wellbeing as a fundamental rethinking of work, leadership and culture

RESOURCES

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Transcript from the interview


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SPEAKERS

Graeme Cowan, Chris Cummings

Graeme Cowan 00:06

It’s a real pleasure to welcome Chris Cummings to The Caring CEO, welcome, Chris.

 

Chris Cummings 03:21

Hi Graeme, yeah. Thanks very much for having me. It’s great to be here.

 

Graeme Cowan 03:25

Yeah, it’s a pleasure. What does care in the workplace mean to you?

 

Chris Cummings 03:32

So I think, from my perspective, I think there’s three areas, I think allowing people to be themselves. So creating an environment that allows creating a culture and an environment where, where people can be themselves. Clear expectations around the job role that everyone’s doing. So we have a clear direction on where we’re going. Which, which really allows people to know exactly where they stand and allow that self care and creating a culture of flexibility, allowing everyone to be able to live their lives as well as perform really well at work.

 

Graeme Cowan 04:20

You started the Wellbeing At Work Global. How did you come to start that? And if you could just explain a little bit about the evolution of movement?

 

Chris Cummings 04:34

Yeah, so So we’re celebrating 10 years this year. So just before that, my partner who has anxiety and depression had a pretty bad episode and and spiralling, really having quite a lot of challenges, but subsequently had some pretty poor treatment at work as well. And it just sort of stopped me in my tracks. I was, I was working in the corporate sector myself in events and saw what happened at home, and just wanted to try and make, make a small difference in the world and and try and make the workplace a better place. And so I quit my corporate job and started on this on this journey to really bring leaders together, to educate, to inspire and to demonstrate the power of what focusing on well being at work can really do for organizations to, to enable high performance, and to make them happier and healthier, to attract great talent. So, so that’s what we, that’s what we started. And it’s just sort of evolved really, to a global place now. So. So yeah, we take place around the world, and our mission is clear, we want to make wellbeing a strategic priority, in every organization.

 

Graeme Cowan 05:56

And I see now that you have 10 conferences around the world, which is quite quite an achievement. But I suspect that the first six months, were a bit of a challenge, what was the hardest thing about selling this movement?

 

Chris Cummings 06:14

I think it was longer than six months. So yeah, I mean, back then, I got called all sorts of names, you know, well being was seen as a fluffy sort of side thing, really. And so it was pretty tough for the first two or three years to really enable leaders and to really get that message across that this is not just about doing a couple of yoga classes, and everything will be okay. It’s about embedding wellbeing as a strategic priority is looking at every  aspect of the business. And, and really, as I say, embed it as a priority, getting more and more leaders getting more C suite to really engage with the data, the

evidence, and, you know, thankfully, that’s that started to happen, and certainly accelerated during COVID. But yeah, it was quite a quite a challenging, first couple of years for sure.

 

Graeme Cowan 07:24

What was critical about getting the C suite and the C on board? What are the things that really counted?

 

Chris Cummings 07:34

I think, talking their language, understanding what what drives the C suite within an organization. Know, if we do approach C suite and say, wellbeing is really important, you know, make sure everyone does two yoga classes a week or something like that, then it’s just not going to land as well as have if you can provide some real clear stats and evidence. And that that is really starting to come to the fore now. So this, you know, if you want high performing organizations that can attract and retain great talent can reduce sickness and be more profitable, can have a higher share price. These are the things that that keep the C suite awake at night and and that’s what an approach to wellbeing in the workplace can can provide it, it has the answer to many of the big challenges we have today.

 

Graeme Cowan 08:34

And what is the recommended way that you suggest that companies embrace will being not just as a side thing, but part of the DNA?

 

Chris Cummings 08:48

I think it’s looking at right across the business. And and every touchpoint and every department. You know, I was talking to someone the other day about the onboarding process. What do we do when people first come into an organization? How do how do those first six to eight weeks feel for an employee? And if you get it right, at that point, the likelihood is the research is there that that employee will not only stay but perform so much better, and be part of that so. So right from that first touch point, as an employee to everyday life, you know, what sort of what sort of environment and culture you creating? What’s for flexibility offering? It’s not just about how much can I get paid? It’s not just the the compound bends it’s it’s that people want a lot more from their job. Now they want more purpose. They want more flexibility and so wide across the business, really embedding it in every area, and then having a leadership team that really believes it, you know walks the walk and talks to talk. So I think it’s not easy. It’s a really comprehensive thing to do, and it’s continually evolving. But, but but if the workforce can see the direction of travel that an organization is taking, then then allow you a bit of

flexibility along that journey.

 

Graeme Cowan 10:23

Yeah. And, you know, I think one of the really important elements is leaders, and particularly the CEO, including and positioning the well being strategy as part of the vision and values, the organization is not something extra, it’s something that, you know, we need to be successful. And to really build that momentum. And we, at WeCare 365, we create simple, scalable learning for leaders to identify mental health issues and also to prevent them. And it’s interesting what you say about the onboarding. You know, we have a client here in Australia called SPC, which is a very, very old company, it’s a it’s a fruit cannery. And they have WeCare every employee complete, WeCare before they start the organization. And we care, it’s just a short. That’s what if I’ve got a course, which shows people how to identify someone who’s struggling, how to have the AOK conversation, and how to guide them to the help that they need. And they position that as part of the onboarding as we, you know, part of our DNA and our culture is caring for each other. So we want everyone to be able to know how to identify and support someone that’s struggling. And, and I’m sure you found this as well, is that you know what, people weren’t at work, it’s just as relevant in their personal life as well. You know, that. We have people around us, you mentioned your partner, everywhere has a friend or family member who struggles with either either depression, anxiety or a substance abuse problem. And it’s part of it isn’t as this isn’t just a word thing. It’s a it’s a really helpful mindset for our whole life.

 

Chris Cummings 12:23

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it’s look at the stats around the world. Look at the look of the issues, we’ve gotten a look with the younger generation coming through, I mean, I saw something just a couple of days ago around youth mental health. And it’s staggering how how stark these these numbers are. And the workplace is, is a wonderful point where we can really reach a lot of people. But as you say, the ripple effects of that, everyone within the workplace has families, has friends. That’s how we can have really major impact. If we get it right in the workplace, that will ripple into our communities, and then we’ll have a much better world to live in, and will be a lot healthier. Yeah.

 

Graeme Cowan 13:15

And, you know, we have we’ve interviewed in the past Bob Chapman, who’s the author of everybody matters. He’s very, very successful businessman in the US. And, you know, he has an approach that will make work rewarding and engaging and energizing will have less divorces. Because people, people go home, feeling positive about these careers, not come home and kick the cat. And so it’s wonderful when we do get, you know, influential leaders walking and talk about this. I’m sure you’re familiar with there was a very large study released by Oxford. I can’t remember the researchers name, this year. But it basically showed that wellbeing programs didn’t work. I’m sure you saw that. What’s your response to that?

 

Chris Cummings 14:18

Yeah, I have seen it and it certainly caused a bit of a stir. And I think if you if you read a bit deeper and see where they were coming from, I know. I know that the guys behind it, the research quite well. And I think what they’re saying is and I tend to agree is I think especially during COVID organizations went into panic mode, and and understandably so we wanted to sort of support our people as quickly as possible. And and we didn’t have much time to plan you know, everything happened quite quickly and maybe some of those things that we did quickly weren’t thought through in any great detail, and actually are not having the impact that they the desired outcomes that we’re all looking for. I think what we’re seeing now from employers, or certainly some employers is a is a willingness to take a step back slightly and think about this more strategically. And it’s what I touched on earlier around. What are we doing in every part of the organization? It’s because we’re all in this to have an impact. We all want positive outcomes, we don’t want to see some of the stats that we’re seeing around the world. So how can we, instead of rushing into things, and doing quick fixes that we had to do during COVID? Let’s step back and think more strategically. And, and by the sounds of it, your Onboarding Tool is, is one of those touch points is really thinking about how we embed this across the organization, because those those companies and organizations who are doing that are seeing significant results, and the same group in Oxford, have also done a study around comprehensive well being programs having a direct impact on the share price of the organization. So I think, yes, I agree. Some programs are not working. But that’s not because wellbeing is a bad idea. It’s because of the implementation.

 

Graeme Cowan 16:33

Yeah, very much. So. And I think as I understand that, we’re talking about individual programs. So there’s just an announcement to to employees that these programs are available, go and go and use them. And I shared a post, about this time last year, on LinkedIn with it went absolutely viral. And that post was in essence, that the best way to boost employee wellbeing is to give them a good manager. And I think that is a huge component of this well being at work, if a manager walks the talk, if they practice self care themselves, if they are open about their own challenges, if they’re prepared to be

vulnerable, that then creates an environment where people can be their authentic self, where they can be supportive of each other. What have you done to address that? That manager element, not just the C suite, but throughout the whole organization?

 

Chris Cummings 17:38

Yeah, I completely agree. And, you know, there’s the old saying, people don’t leave the job, they leave their manager, or they leave their boss. And, and that’s so true. I think when we, when we talk about leaders, we don’t just talk about C suite, we talk about people, leaders, we talk about leaders across business. And I think that’s where it can get stuck, you might have a C suite, who are saying, we truly believe in this, we need this organization to, to follow our lead. And then you have those line managers where depending on your your line manager, depending on how engaged they are, in the subject, and how authentic they want to be, is, that’s where it can get stuck in large organizations and, and doing the training and the work with those line managers is critical. So So we really encourage when we talk about leaders, we talk about anyone who has responsibility for poor people, because that has to filter down into the organization deep into the organization to make these well being programs really work. Because your email from the C suite supporting it, he’s not going to do it alone. We want to get everyone on board.

 

Graeme Cowan 19:02

I remember seeing a classic example of that. I did a workshop for the finance division of a very large company in Australia, one of the top 10 companies in Australia. And, you know, I talked about knowing what the one thing is and making that a priority. And the CFO  that you know, shared but running right and running in nature was that for him, and following the workshop was only about 15 people, but all very, very senior finance people from around the world. The organizer told me that, you know, the CFO had put into his diary every day at one o’clock to two o’clock to go for a run and in the beautiful Botanic Gardens in Sydney. And this organizer said You know, when people saw that they started doing their own stuff might not have been running but it could have been going to the gym or what Walking or, or getting outside. And that has way more impact than a policy that sits on some intranet.

 

Chris Cummings 20:09

Yeah, yeah. And I was also talking to another leader who used to put into their diary that they were going to the gym when actually they were going to their therapist. And I said, No, change it, but put in there, you’re going to a therapist, break that stigma, and and allow, give that permission, allow people to see that. And again, they did change that. And it really, the ripple effect across the business was so, so powerful, because it’s, you know, you don’t have to lie about where you’re going to create that culture be authentic. Therapy’s good. It’s okay. You know? And, and it really does, it makes a huge

difference. And, yeah, I have a very open calendar myself, and my team can see exactly when I blocked time out, and I do block time out. And and this is, this is for me, and I’m putting that in there. And I’ll tell everyone what I’m doing. And we all have to have that. Yeah. And it’s really important.

 

Graeme Cowan 21:16

Jumping back to the first conference you put on, I presume that was in the UK. Is that right? It was? What? Can you reflect a little bit on? What went well, and what you learn from that very first conference?

 

Chris Cummings 21:29

Oh, well, I learned a lot. I do you know, what I was very, I was very fortunate. I mean, it was it was a lot of hard work. And obviously, back then, really challenging to, to find those success stories. And we did a lot of storytelling. So we had a lot of very brave leaders back then, openly talking about their own challenges. I thought it was really interesting, we have a couple of board members from major organizations, and talking about their own mental health challenges. And still, you know, I’m in the C-suite. But despite this, and that was really powerful back then. I think it’s still, you know, storytelling is powerful. But but certainly back then it was really, really amazing. And you could hear a pin drop in the

room. So those those were really great moments. And, and I’m eternally grateful for those brave people to speak out back then. We did a lot. We did a lot one. But, you know, it wasn’t for the want of trying, and there was lots of lessons made. And we’ve, we’ve really evolved. And I think, one thing that you know, part of our values is courage, we will try things different. We’ll learn fast. And we’ll change things if it’s if it is long, but but we also try to break down those barriers, and have that edge and nobody’s at fault in the team. You know, we’ve got to try these things to really move and innovate. So. So yeah, I won’t list all of the things that we got one, but there was plenty.

 

Graeme Cowan 21:31

Well just tell us a couple of those a couple of things that, you know, you had to sit back and say we need to do this different next time.

Chris Cummings 23:39

Yeah, I think we got I think the venue wasn’t ideal. We didn’t really think about the whole experience. We were focused on the content and making sure that that was right, but but actually, we didn’t. I look at the events now. We don’t just talk about wellbeing, we live and breathe it. So people have a real experience when they come to the events and really feel what well being at work is like and I don’t think we did enough around that. In those early days. Now, very different people. People come and have that experience.

 

Graeme Cowan 24:21

And you now have, you know, 10 events around the world. We say you really are a global a global movement. Do you have to vary the conferences much according to where it’s hosted?

 

Chris Cummings 24:36

We do Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s all under the umbrella, the same umbrella so we don’t cover any other topics. So it’s very, you know, we want to make it a consistent experience. So if you go to one of our Canadian or Australian or Middle Eastern events, then you’ll know you’re at wellbeing at work summit. And so there’s that layer of consistency. But obviously, there’s there’s many local challenges and local nuances. So we will tailor it, we’ll do a lot of research in those regions leading up to the event to make sure that we’re, we’re on track and on trend. I mean, the Australia where you sit, Graeme, you know, with the, with the new legislation in the last couple of years on psychosocial, psychological safe workplaces. You know, that was a big topic for us a couple of years ago, in one of the first countries. Thankfully, they’re doing hopefully many more will, will be following soon. But, but you know, that they’re the sort of things that we want to reflect and make sure we’re, we’re, we’re, you know, bang on trend in terms of the topics. But generally speaking, you know, we’re all human beings. We’re trying to do the similar thing. And many of the attendees are multinationals. Anyway, so they want that international theater as well.

 

Graeme Cowan 26:07

Yeah. There is greater stigma in some countries around mental health issues, like in places like Japan, Korea, India, there is a greater sense of reluctance to talk about those things have, do you have any conferences in those areas? And how do you try to address that?

 

Chris Cummings 26:30

So they’re the areas that I really enjoy doing? Because, yeah, they’re the moments that that that really get me excited. So we, we have been doing the our India summit for the last couple of years. And it sort of takes me back to the Middle East summit that we launched eight years ago, you know, we there was very little talk around mental health. And we really wanted to challenge those employers. And again, it just, it comes back to finding that language that works on a local level. So if you look at India, for example, the economy is booming, its fastest growing population, so much going on, but they also want to get it right, as they grow. And it reminds me again, of the Middle East, you know, when when this explosion was happening in the Middle East around, you know, huge growth. But what sort of growth is it? And how, how can we do this better than other economies? So, so yeah, we, again, that they’re challenging, because it’s hard to get those leaders on board at the early days. But if we can provide them with enough of a chore and enough evidence, then then we certainly put it off. And, yeah, they excite me because it’s fresh territory. And you’re you’re watching the whole industry develop in front.

 

Graeme Cowan 28:07

Yeah, there is a lot of progress and momentum. And as you said, a lot of it has to do with COVID. And the real trials and tribulations that organizations went through, and you and the UK had a pretty tough when you reflect on those companies who you had on board before COVID. How did they approach mental well being during that COVID period? Well, and within when there were so many difficulties in the UK? Did they did you see them approaching differently to other companies that hadn’t even started on that journey?

 

Chris Cummings 28:51

Well, I think that COVID, the COVID years, as most known as now is, it’s almost everyone was touched by it. No matter who you were, where you were, it was that global pandemic. We all got, we all had different experiences, but but most of them were pretty bad. some worse than others, obviously. And you saw CEOs being touched by it as well. Nobody, nobody could escape that. So whether it was the them themselves, or was it a member of their family? You know, it was it was close to home. And so we really saw lots of videos from CEOs coming out, really reinforcing the importance of mental health, reinforcing the importance of looking after people making sure everyone was okay. And, and that was the moment I thought, yeah, this is this really hit the C suite now. Whereas before, there were people in the C suite who were touched by it, probably because of again, a family member, or themselves. But everyone was touched by it during COVID. So, yeah, it was, for me, it was it was a terrible time. You know, we’re in events business, we couldn’t do our job. But, but, but but we were also very fortunate in the sense that we didn’t have any, I didn’t personally have any major incidents in the family and Lord, I team, thankfully, but but there was an awakening for sure. And I think that, that accelerated this, and thankfully, now, it feels like it’s been embedded in organizations. And so hopefully, we can only improve Walker doing.

 

Graeme Cowan 30:56

Yeah. And it is, you know, when leaders use storytelling to explain, you know, their own struggles and their own insights, as well makes a big difference. We have a program, which is called weekend manager. And it’s that 15 minutes to be learning with the help sheets and what have you. But then it sent followed by 12, lunch videos, one video per week, a bit of about a minute, which is one element, sort of what was covered in the course, and encourage people to put that into action. But we did a big project for Audi supermarkets where they want to train their 3500 Plus managers about how to create a

more mentally healthy workplaces. But it was started by a video from their CEO that talked about how he’d had issues and with his own self care how he had to consciously work on it to stay well himself. And just really encouraging the managers who are listening to prioritize their own mental health, and then be in a good shape to assist other people. That example, that story, made a massive difference in terms of how it was rolled out and how it was received. Have you also seen other CEOs do that tell their stories and by video and encourage that to be spread across the organization?

 

Chris Cummings 32:43

Yeah, I’ve seen it in video format, I’ve format I’ve I’ve seen it also in person. So there was, I think, last year, World Mental Health Day, there was a couple of companies that actually had the CEO, come down to the main auditorium and talk to the whole staff about the importance of looking after your mental health and also their own personal story. And I think not only does it give permission to that the entire organization, it builds that trust and culture. But it also says to me, and this is a big thing for me, whenever you Google mental health, you get someone holding their head in their hands. And you know, it’s always a negative connotation. But when you see a CEO, successful CEO, who talks about

their mental health challenges, but they’re still successful, despite their mental health challenges, and I think that, that sends a positive message as well, that we all have mental health, as we know, and we all have physical health, sometimes it’s really good. Sometimes it’s not so good. Sometimes it can be at the extreme end, but there are really successful high performing people out there with a mental health diagnosis. And we need that positive message like we have with sprinters in the Olympics, you know that the you know, the peak physical well being we need that for for mental health as well and stop the negative connotations because there’s lots of positive

 

Graeme Cowan 34:33

It’s a very good point. And one of the things that I’ve found really helpful in my presentations is talking about moodometer you know that we all have a, you know, our green, amber and red mood. And we all go up and down, everyone goes up and down. But really learning the things we can do to go from the red zone to the amber zone. Definitely. And Zone Two, the Green Zone is really critical there makes it all inclusive, inclusive language I was also involved in helping to start RUOK was a very successful

movement in Australia? Basically, it’s about identify someone who’s struggling, asking, are you okay and encouraging them to seek help. But I think it was ultimately started because the founder, Gavin Larkin lost his father to suicide, but he could have made it, you know, a National Suicide Prevention Day. But coming from a communications background, which he did, the tagline was a conversation could change your life. And all of us can relate to that, either being the beneficiary of a really caring conversation, or supporting someone else. And I really have an aversion to jargon, getting too much involved in talking about mental health, because we’re not here to be experts, we’re not here to diagnose, we’re here to just really understand when someone might not be themselves, they’re struggling a bit. And they just need support, to be listened to with empathy, and ultimately, encourage help seeking, encourage healthful, and the best possible health seeking. Because in my book, Back From The Brink, I surveyed, over 4000 people around the world who’ve been through tough times. And one of the biggest regrets was not getting a rigorous diagnosis early enough. And so in our programs, how we can manage programs, we really, with a help sheet on, you know, how to find a mental health service GP, and how to prepare for mental health discussion, because that GP or psychologist or psychiatrist will benefit greatly if you’re able to tell them about, you know, past incidents, previous experiences with medication, levels of medication, and, you know, what’s worked in the past, all those things are very beneficial for an expert to be able to provide that guidance. What have you done to try and change the message you mentioned, there was a little pushback when it started? How are some How’s, as the message change to enable that to spread further?

 

Chris Cummings 37:39

I think I think we’re getting there. I still think there’s negative connotations to say, the Google search results still come up with the same things. And, you know, I tried to talk about some of the best people I know, have mental health, official mental health diagnosis, condition, they’re more creative and, and list all of the positives around that. You know, it’s a challenge. It’s a challenge, I think, we need to have more role models like we do in the physical health world, if you’re at the top of your game in physical

health, and you’re feeling great, and you’re performing great as a sports person, or whatever it might be, then there’s images of that success. I think having more and more positive role models out there is

going to help I talk as I say, I talk a lot about positivity. I’m also involved in an award scheme here in the UK. And it’s all around celebrating mental health, and, and having a really upbeat environment around that. And celebrating those who’ve, who’ve come through those challenges. And so, so yeah, there’s there’s a lot of work to do. But and of course, we don’t want to diminish what people who are going through a tough time. I don’t want to diminish that at all. But I do think we need to have more positive stories as well.

 

Graeme Cowan 39:27

You mentioned previously about, you know, the pandemic and you’ve been an events company, and suddenly everything stopped. How challenging was that for you?

 

Chris Cummings 39:39

It was pretty tough. I had a sulk for about about a week. And, and then then I thought to myself, well, you know, I’m not going to stop this. So how can we how can we do this in a different way? And, and so, we we had, I think we had three or four summits coming up in different locations. So we decided to bring all of them together and do a 24 hour, nonstop virtual event. And, and, and incorporate all of the, the different regions. And, and yeah, it worked, it worked. Amazingly, I was exhausted by the end of it, because we started in that, we started in Sydney, and went all the way through the time zones, right through to California. So it was, it was a long, 24 hour period. And I did it with with a friend of mine, and we’re sort of tag teaming. But But yeah, I think in moments like that, and, and I am a I’m an introvert, I’m a reflector. So I had that moment of, you know, upset like everyone else did, about being locked up, and not being able to see people. But I also thought, right, let’s really think about this, let’s get some clarity. Let’s find a way to make  this work. And so so we did, and I was very honest with the team as well as the look, we’re gonna go through some, some pretty tough times here, we can see that. But I’ll do everything I can to make sure nobody loses their job and nobody did. We, we got through it. And and I think we’ve become a much stronger unit because of that. So in many ways, it was a it was a positive, I guess, because it brought us closer. And we’ve got a really strong team now. But But yeah, it was it was tough. And lots of lessons I aged pretty, pretty quickly. But, but yeah, it was, you know, like, with anything running a business you you how couldn’t you have a roller coaster? I always say that to anyone who wants to start their own business and like prepare yourself for the ride of your life because it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be, it’s gonna be fun, it’s gonna be upsetting, it’s gonna be wild. But if you can remain focused and stay determined, then then you’re an adequate time.

 

Graeme Cowan 42:20

How can people find out more about well being at Work global? Chris?

 

Chris Cummings 42:26

Well, our websites probably the best. So wellbeingatwork.worldis, is where everything is and so. So yeah, wherever you are in the world, it’d be great to hear from you

 

Graeme Cowan 42:38

Chris, knowing what you know now, what advice would you give your 18 year old self to the wisdom of living on the way? What advice would you outline for yourself?

 

Chris Cummings 42:55

Don’t be worrying about this too much. I was I was I was I was actually in when I was 20. I was actually in, in Sydney where you are I had a backpack on and I was I was going around Australia, which was the time of my life really. But I had this niggling thing in the back of my head going, what are you going to do with your life Chris? So I had no idea and I was probably too worried about it at that point. So I’ve tried to relay that to my nephews who are similar age now who are busy backpacking around Australia. Just said that don’t worry too much. You’ll you’ll figure it out. And nine times out of 10 you do so? Yeah. Just Just enjoy those those early years and, and let the rest figure itself out.

 

Graeme Cowan 43:47

Thanks for being part of The Caring CEO, Chris, it’s been a real pleasure talking to you.

 

Chris Cummings 43:52

Thanks very much for having me, Graeme. It’s been great.

 

Graeme Cowan 43:58

Excellent. Well, thanks so much, Chris. Really appreciate that. When’s the next Australian conference coming up? I should have I should have asked that. Actually. When’s that coming out?

 

Chris Cummings 44:09

Oh it’s November so okay, we’ve got a bit of time. Yeah. Oh, that was that okay for you. Did that. Say you wanted? Yeah, absolutely.

 

Graeme Cowan 44:19

Absolutely in thanks for being you know, really forthright and talking about the lows as well the highs, because we all have them don’t we?

 

Chris Cummings 44:29

Exactly. Yeah. No, so it’s been fun talking to you, Graeme. I really appreciate it and yeah, just let me know when it’s ready. And I’ll share it with our, with our networks and everything and posted has tagged us on anything on on LinkedIn and stuff.

 

Graeme Cowan 44:46

Excellent. Enjoy your evening.

 

Chris Cummings 44:49

Thanks very much. Take care. See you soon. Bye bye.

 

 

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